Speaking Up and Fucking Up with Kati Douglas

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Suzie Sherman (00:00:14):
This is And The Next Thing You Know. It’s a podcast about how our lives go exactly not as we planned them. I’m Suzie Sherman, stating the obvious since September, 2019.

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Hi everyone. Yeah. So it’s still a pandemic. None of us is really okay right now. We’re not okay. Not individually, not collectively. There’s been too much death, too much trauma, isolation. It’s all I can do to force myself, to take some walks, get lost in a good, binge-watch, try not to feel the nagging sense of guilt that I’m not being more productive, because hashtag late stage capitalism. And I also want to say, thank you for your patience with me in this sluggish pandemic reality. I haven’t posted as many episodes as I’ve wanted to this year. I’ve got a backlog of, I think, four more episodes in the production queue right now. So stay patient. I’m trying to be kind to myself about this as well.

Suzie Sherman (00:01:16):
And I hope if nothing else, this podcast helps us all to tolerate this reality a little bit better that we can keep reaching for our creative goals. And maybe we can be easier on ourselves when we don’t reach them, or when we have to be flexible about changing our goals, if we need to. There are often big external pressures that bear down on whether we can do the thing or not. And this is certainly one of those times. So before I introduce today’s guest, quick Patreon pitch, because late stage capitalism, haha! Help me do my passion project for living! 5 bucks a month gets you access to all the bonus material from the show so that you can really geek out with me. There is an exclusive video performance of Amelia Ray from the episode, A Cruisible of Sorts. There’s a great audio montage I put together of recent guest, Dana Morrigan’s weirdo cultural heroes.

Suzie Sherman (00:02:13):
I’m really proud of some of these goodies that I’ve put together for patrons, and I want to share them with you. And if you give just 10 bucks a month, you get a shout out on every darned episode. So just go to patreon.com/nextthingpod. In this episode, I talk to early childhood educator and photographer, Kati Douglas, and we talk about so many things. Kati and I talk about how she entered the education field and what those first few years as a green educator were like. We talk about what it’s like to deal with white supremacy as a biracial Black mom of Black kids with a Black partner. We also talk about how her struggle with postpartum depression catalyzed a radical career path change, and how she puts equity and justice at the center of all her work. A little “inside baseball” decoding for this episode.

Suzie Sherman (00:03:07):
Kati and I met when we both worked for a wonderful community preschool in the Mission in San Francisco called Buen Dia Family School. And that’s what we’re talking about right at the beginning of the episode. Also, I’d like to apologize for the audio quality in the first half of the episode, it really improves after the mid-reel break. So hang in there. I was dealing with a Garageband crash at the same time that I was actually dealing with my computer up and dying in the middle of producing this episode. So hang with it when it sounds a little patchy here and there. Okay? Alright. Preamble is done. This is my conversation with Kati Douglas.

New Speaker (00:03:52):
So that’s the only headphones that you have that you’d be able to use.

Kati Douglas (00:03:56):
I’m going to go see if I can steal some from Trey. He’s on a zoom class right now, but I’m going to go steal it. So I’ll be right back.

Suzie Sherman (00:04:04):
Nice to see you, by the way!

Kati Douglas (00:04:05):
I know, hi!

Kati Douglas (00:04:10):
I just pulled them out of his ear. He was like, “What’s happening!?”

Suzie Sherman (00:04:13):
What are kids for, if not to steal their shit.

Kati Douglas (00:04:17):
Okay. We are we’re ready.

Suzie Sherman (00:04:20):
Hell, yeah. Hello.

Kati Douglas (00:04:21):
Hi. It’s so good to see your face!

Suzie Sherman (00:04:23):
It’s really great to see you. It’s been a really long time.

Kati Douglas (00:04:27):
Yeah.

New Speaker (00:04:27):
Gosh. I mean, I don’t know how long, I guess, did you stop working for Buen Dia, before I stopped working for Buen Dia?

Kati Douglas (00:04:34):
Yeah. So it’s been at least seven years.

Suzie Sherman (00:04:39):
What!? Based on how, um, old Treyson is, I believe you, but like, I don’t believe you.

Kati Douglas (00:04:48):
Yeah. Cause he’s 12. So I think I left the year after he left Buen Dia.

Suzie Sherman (00:04:53):
No kidding.

Kati Douglas (00:04:56):
Yeah. Well, you know, at least for me it was a really like such a pivotal moment of my life being there, like with everybody, like it was such a, not pivotal maybe, but it’s like entrenched in my memory as like a traumatic and happy time there. Um, for at least with Treyson. And so I remember it vividly, so it doesn’t feel like it was that long ago just because I have such a working memory of it still.

Suzie Sherman (00:05:22):
Of course. And it’s really formative in your professional life and the people that you’re connected to. And I loved working at Buen Dia so much. I really loved working with you. I, I, I mean, Adelina is one, definitely one of the best bosses I’ve ever had.

Kati Douglas (00:05:39):
Um, oh yeah. I learned a lot from her.

Suzie Sherman (00:05:42):
Like, way up there. Um,

Kati Douglas (00:05:42):
Yeah, I learned a lot from everybody there. I, it was, it’s always the place I go back to when I’m like, what is it like to work with bad-ass women who are there for the community and like, not just the community, like as the like geographical location, but just like the community that they’ve built in terms of like the people that they hire and who they work for. And it really is like a family sometimes dysfunctional.

New Speaker (00:06:12):
Sure.

Kati Douglas (00:06:12):
Um, haha, and, the people that they bring in, I really learned a lot about like resilience and, um, just, uh, a new way of like leadership or not a new way, a women’s way of leadership.

Suzie Sherman (00:06:26):
Right. And really like with such strong multicultural ethics around how they were building that community and how intentional they were.

Kati Douglas (00:06:36):
Oh yeah. It’s like the, really, the first place of like, that I’ve worked that has, that was antiracist before it, they were saying it before, it was like a popular thing now.

New Speaker (00:06:48):
Right.

Kati Douglas (00:06:48):
Like it’s the, yeah. It’s yeah. They held me and Trey in such a way that I can never, ever, I mean, they made it happen for us in so many ways. It makes me want to cry because it’s just so powerful how they just changed our lives with just with just being supportive and being there.

Suzie Sherman (00:07:10):
It feels really organic to just start in on your professional life as an educator. When did you start being an educator? When did that become your professional path and what did you do before that even like, how did that evolve?

Kati Douglas (00:07:23):
Yeah. Um, it’s so funny. I, all the women, at least on my mom’s side, um, are educators and, and in different capacities. And even on my dad’s side, the one aunt that I have was a librarian with the state, California state librarian. Um, I have librarians, I have teachers, I have professors as you know, aunts and my grandfather on my mom’s side, you know, they’re from Ireland. And so education is a big thing cause they were Catholic. And so after Protestant rule, they were not allowed to be educated. So like education is huge in my family and my mom’s side. And I was mostly raised by my mom, after my parents divorced. Like she, you know, I was with her the majority of the time and really influenced by that. And so actually I remember telling my mom, like I want to be a cosmetologist and she like cried and (laughs) was like, and then like gathered herself, and was like, “okay, but you have to go to college first.”

Kati Douglas (00:08:24):
You know? And so I remember taking a career aptitude test and being like, well, what’s going to make me, you know, some money because I grew up poor. And I knew that I wanted to move out of where we were grew up in Marysville and Wheatland, and I knew I wanted to move out and I knew that I wanted something different. And for me, like money was, you know, the way to do that. And so I was like, I’ll be an accountant because that’s what came up. Cause $80,000 a year was like an amazing amount of money to me, haha.

Suzie Sherman (00:08:57):
–Very attractive. I’ve never made, I’m a bookkeeper, not an accountant, right? Not a higher level accountant. I’ve never made close to that. Not ever.

Kati Douglas (00:09:04):
But let me tell you that dream lasted for about three months because I, I got to college and took my first calculus class and whoa, I got a C because the professor hit on me, but that was it.

New Speaker (00:09:18):
Ew.

Kati Douglas (00:09:18):
Like I failed all the, yeah. I failed everything. Um, it was really hard and I was like, this is not it. And actually, you know, at that time, around the time that I failed, I was on financial aid. And so work study was a thing. So I was applying for work study and I graduated high school early at 17. So I couldn’t work until I was 18. So I had to wait until after the summer. And so I was applying and I went to these different places and then I applied to Buen Dia for, um, I think Amanda’s role. So I was like the office assistant and I got in there and Yvonne is showing she’s feeding a fish during our interview and she’s walking around and I’m like, I don’t know what’s happening.

Kati Douglas (00:10:02):
And they start asking me questions. And I had been a ballet teacher for like the, you know, the YMCA or something for little kids. And I had been a babysitter and all these things and I was driving home and Adelina called me and said like, “We love you. And you know, I know you applied for this position, but, um, we think you should be,” like, “a teacher.” And I was like, oh, okay. So I got it. And I started, you know, two or three days a week. And from three to six, after my, after my classes and man, I was thrown into something I had never experienced before, the way that they speak about children, the way that they speak about just people who are different. Like that, wasn’t what I grew up with. I grew up with like very traditional, “You listen, and you do what you’re told” and there’s no idea or understanding about child development.

Kati Douglas (00:10:54):
And there’s no flexibility with children. I just learned so much from them, uh, from everybody about how to solve disputes like between colleagues and myself or because it was okay to argue there, you know, it was okay to have differences of opinion and like kind of battle it out. And I feel like people who love children, that’s what they do. It’s okay to have difference of opinion. As long as you have the children in mind, I learned how to put children first, how to put families first, how to realize that children are not bad or good, like people are not bad or good it’s it’s behavior and there’s antecedents to it. And you know, and then I decided like, Hey, I’m going to be a teacher. And I enrolled in this program that you got your bachelor’s at the same time that you were getting your credential, which is not at State anymore. And I worked at Buen Dia the whole time.

New Speaker (00:11:43):
That was at SF state, that you did that program.

Kati Douglas (00:11:46):
Yeah. At SF state, it was called LSITE, liberal studies integrative teaching education. And, um, I also went go, you know, I was able to do student teaching around the City in a ton of different places. And mostly I saw what I didn’t want, which was like very military-like, and the opposite of Buen Dia. I then got pregnant when I was 21. And I was more scared to tell (laughing) Yvonne and Adelina than I was my family.

New Speaker (00:12:14):
(Laughs)

Kati Douglas (00:12:22):
I remember that, ’cause I didn’t want to disappoint them. And they just were so amazing, you know, Adelina shared like, you know, her experience, Yvonne shared her experience Trini, you know, all of them. And, um, I wasn’t alone in that space. They held me, they gave me more work hours. They gave me more responsibility. They let me bring Trey to work. Like I would be, you know, they were like, oh, just work in the office. And I wasn’t getting anything done. I had like a newborn up there, you know, but they all held him and loved him. And you know, um, he was basically raised at Buen Dia.

New Speaker (00:12:59):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:13:00):
And so after I finished college, I had to move home because like, it just, there was no way I could, I couldn’t find a job and I was worried. And so I moved in with my mom and I moved to Davis and then three months later I got a job in East Palo Alto, and I was teaching fifth grade. And I taught there for two years and then the school closed. And it was also, like, very toxic and not a great work environment, but the families were amazing. I still stay in touch with them. Like my first kids have graduated college. Now I get invited to their birthday parties. Like, they’re just fuckin’ amazing. They’re the coolest kids. And I’m really lucky that I got to teach them. They give me such grace. Cause I know I messed up so many times as first year teacher, but um,

Suzie Sherman (00:13:44):
You messed up with love. I’m certain, which has a really different thing than, you know, some educational environments like where there’s just no resources given to the school district. Right? Yeah.

Kati Douglas (00:13:58):
Yeah. And this one in particular was like, they actually were, uh, one of those gold standard schools or like, you know, one of those really prestigious schools that they give, you know, um, California Distinguished. That’s what it is. They were one of those. And the district took them down because they said it wasn’t equitable and then took them out of their space, put them in portables in between two schools, on a black top and closed the school within two years.

New Speaker (00:14:24):
Whoa.

Kati Douglas (00:14:24):
It was really sad, really sad. But I saw some things with the culture there of like, like you’re saying, I saw things are the way children were treated by teachers that was like, so unacceptable, like saying “You’re the worst kid I’ve ever seen.”

New Speaker (00:14:39):
Uch.

Kati Douglas (00:14:39):
You know, like, like just really ugly things. I also saw really beautiful and wonderful teachers that I learned a lot from too, that I still am in touch with and really, really good friends with.

Kati Douglas (00:14:51):
And so it was like really this juxtaposition between like how education goes really wrong when you’re working with children of color in a low resourced area. And also how dedicated and amazing teachers are particularly Black women. I mean just outstanding the way that the teachers that they are, the…like how loving they are and the amount of like expectations and rigor that they have for children.

New Speaker (00:15:19):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:15:19):
that should be everywhere that you don’t see all the time. And it also saw how, like, it was my first experience of like really seeing and experiencing like white women teachers stepping in and like not all, like, really seeing damage done to children. And I’m saying that like generally of course it wasn’t all of them,

New Speaker (00:15:41):
Of course.

Kati Douglas (00:15:41):
but like real, really seeing how race and class and all of that, like really created like an unsafe space for some children in their classrooms.

Suzie Sherman (00:15:56):
That the Black teachers there could really naturally invest in the children and that like we, as white people are taught to disregard kids of color. Right. And not invest.

Kati Douglas (00:16:10):
Yeah. Or just, you know, not, not doing the work.

Suzie Sherman (00:16:16):
(We meaning me, not you!)

Kati Douglas (00:16:16):
Yeah, or just like it’s before this time of like antiracism and teaching yourself and books and all of that, right. Like teaching, educators are 80% white women.

Suzie Sherman (00:16:26):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:16:26):
Like, that’s just what it is. And so that work around really being able to understand like culturally, like cultural competence, and critical race theory and being able to like really check yourself and be reflective about your practices and whether it’s damaging to children or not

Suzie Sherman (00:16:42):
Being able to respect your colleagues of color. And the input they’re giving you.

Kati Douglas (00:16:46):
Yeah, exactly. Is like, or even creating a culture within the school where your co…where colleagues can do that, because that oftentimes means that like you might lose your job. And so it really is, it was my first place that I saw that I had to, I had to be in therapy for like years after working there for just some of the things that were experienced. But I’ve come to realize after working in multiple places that like, this is the way of schools, you know, like this is the way that, um, you can, you can be in a different school with different population of children. And it’s still will always be that the minorities in the room are the ones that are worried or not speaking up sometimes because of fear and because of, you know, not being valued for what they bring to the table because of personality, what they look like, you know, and all of that. So, you know, I think as educators, we always have to be constantly checking ourselves, like just as humans, you got to constantly check yourself. Especially at that time, I look back at that and realize like, wow, there were a lot of people just not checking their selves (laughs). It was just not happening.

Suzie Sherman (00:17:58):
Um, and then of course the de-valuing of education in general, in our, in our culture, in our economy, like the resources that are not given, especially, I mean, don’t get me started on prop 13 in California and the defunding of poor school districts. We could talk for hours about that, but just the devaluing of it, of education, especially early childhood educators or K K-12 educators. And so the pressure comes to bear on the whole system. And of course the white folks in that context, especially white folks in leadership roles are the enforcers of that pressure and that, and that stress, everyone’s stretched thin.

Kati Douglas (00:18:42):
Right? Yeah. The white supremacy culture, right. We are all living in a white supremacy culture, right. Like basically the quantity over quality, the grind, the like political correctness, the perfectionism,

Suzie Sherman (00:18:54):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:18:54):
the like constant timelines, um, all of that, that, that whole white s–, like we’re all living within it and like, you’re right. It’s totally reinforced and internalized. Um, you know, I, I’m constantly being like, okay, why am I feeling so stressed and anxious? Oh, it’s because I have literally no room to breathe.

Suzie Sherman (00:19:13):
Yes, right.

Kati Douglas (00:19:14):
Um, you know, um, everything has to go, go, go. And so, yeah that…

Suzie Sherman (00:19:17):
White supremacy plus capitalism culture, I think…

Kati Douglas (00:19:20):
Oh, well, yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:19:22):
Like, “Every moment of my life has to be productive, or else I am a failure.”

Kati Douglas (00:19:26):
Exactly.

Suzie Sherman (00:19:26):
And then of course I’ve interpolated all the messages in my case, like misogyny, you know, anti-Semitism, fatphobia, you know, homophobia, whatever it is, whatever it is, we’ve absorbed those messages, interpolated them. And, and, and we tell ourselves that that we’re shit, and and we’re failures. Um, yeah.

Kati Douglas (00:19:49):
God.

Suzie Sherman (00:19:50):
Yeah. let’s take a moment. So, yeah. So just thinking, you’re thinking back to like this, this experience of working at this particular public school in East Palo Alto, and, however, you had come from this really nurturing environment in San Francisco at a really multicultural, um, bilingual school that really uplifted you and gave you a lot of confidence in yourself and resources helped you grow up your son.

Kati Douglas (00:20:22):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:20:22):
Um, in that, in that context, then you went to this public school context, then it sounds like you needed to, um, therapize to like, um, d– like, you know, uh, what’s the word I’m looking for–d–you know, debrief or like defrag from that experience.

Kati Douglas (00:20:39):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:20:39):
What happened after that? Because you went back to Buen Dia at a certain point.

Kati Douglas (00:20:47):
No, actually, oh yeah. I did go back to Buen Dia, but first I stopped off at a lovely school in San Francisco, Flynn. I went to Flynn, and I was at Flynn when, I remember going into these interviews, and I want to be clear too, about working in Red–in East Palo Alto was like, I totally fucked up and made mistakes. Like I totally did. Like, I was so young.

Suzie Sherman (00:21:12):
You were green.

Kati Douglas (00:21:12):
that like some of the things–yeah. Some of the things I look back on, I’m like, Ooh, that was not good. And I would never make those same mistakes again. But I remember being, feeling so awful about the teacher that I was, or like the–where I was that I would go into these interviews and feel like I, you know, I’m not shit. Like, I’m not going to be able to get this, you know? And I went to this interview in Flynn and it was for one year and I didn’t realize it, but, you know, I just showed up and I, like, I knew in my heart what I, where I wanted to work and how it needed to be.

Kati Douglas (00:21:46):
And it was a kindergarten role. And so all the Buen Dia just spilled out of me in that role about like what I felt about children and what I believed and what are the most developmentally appropriate practice for children. Like just kind of, you know, my pedagogy and theory around that. And, and the science. And I remember leaving and being like, well, I didn’t get that right. Because like, there’s this real, you know, Buen Dia is a non-profit private school. They can do what they want to do. And they are leaders in what they do. And they are an anomaly in a lot of ways. And then in these public schools, they say that this is what they want, but really they don’t do that all the time for children. Um, but they called me like two minutes after I left the interview and offered me the job.

Suzie Sherman (00:22:30):
Uh-huh (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:22:31):
And I just remember like jumping up and down in the streets, you know, I was a single mom. I was so concerned about how I was going to provide for Trey. I was making like, you know, $35,000 a year living in the Bay Area. I was barely holding on, um, mentally…

Suzie Sherman (00:22:49):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:22:49):
…emotionally, financially. It was really hard. And so Trey and I moved to Oakland, I happened to find a landlord who was like, you know, and rent was $1,200 for a two bedroom at that time in Oakland in, like, a nice area. “Nice.”

Both (00:23:04):
(Laughter)

Suzie Sherman (00:23:04):
Let’s unpack that.

Kati Douglas (00:23:07):
Like, meh! What does that even mean? I guess what I meant by that is that the people, the landlords were nice. They were kind people to us and, you know, we, we started going over there and he started going to Buen Dia. And so we had some separate, like we, you know, we got to be close to each other, but he got to experience Buen Dia without me.

Kati Douglas (00:23:29):
And Flynn was lovely and wonderful. And I got to work with teachers who were really aligned and the principal was Karling. He’s amazing. I think he’s like the superintendent of the mission now. And he just he’s like Yvonne, but, you know, in Latinx male form. And he’s like just amazing and wonderful and kind and warm. And at this time I also was really struggling with Trey. Like he was really, you know, struggling with the separation of his dad and I, and,

Suzie Sherman (00:23:58):
Uh-huh (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:23:58):
um, a lot of emotional stuff coming up. And then, you know, Yvonne and Adelina asked me to come back because Yvonne was like, kind of stepping away at that time. And I was going to be the curriculum coordinator. And I just remember being so excited to come back and be there and be with Trey. And I felt like it was such an opportunity that I could never pass up.

Kati Douglas (00:24:19):
And it proved to be a wonderful time where I learned a lot about leadership, a lot about transitioning over and building relationships of coming from, like, I was once your, you know, apprentice in the classroom to now I’m the person who’s like kind of coaching and supporting and giving ideas and suggestions. And it was hard,

Suzie Sherman (00:24:41):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:24:41):
you know? Um, I was also much younger than everybody else. It just, it was a challenge and everybody was so wonderful to me about it. And Adelina like really helped me and cultivated, like tried to cultivate that confidence in me. And while also like staying true to, you know, who Buen Dia is in the arts and the theater and just really keeping children at the forefront. And, um, I remember Trey having such a hard time and trying to have these decisions of like, is he going to stay here?

Kati Douglas (00:25:12):
Is he not? You know, I remember having to like go to the classroom in the middle of the day and like hold him and hug him so that he wouldn’t, you know, like hurt himself or hurt others. And I just remember feeling really lonely and really, um, like I was failing, like I was a failing mom, and not that anyone had said that to me, you know, but I was like, I’m the mom with the kid who is, who’s struggling, I’m the mom of the kid with challenges. And will we ever come out of this and

Suzie Sherman (00:25:44):
And trying to play that role of curriculum leadership,

Kati Douglas (00:25:48):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:25:48):
uh, you know, being, being a leader among all these teachers who used to work with as a more junior teacher at the same time that you were having, that Trey was really having a hard time.

Kati Douglas (00:26:01):
Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, like I couldn’t be in some, some places at the meetings cause they wanted to talk about just him and, or I would walk in and they were talking about him and I would just feel so hurt, you know, because it, I think at the time it was like, I really wanted to protect him and I didn’t know what to do for him. And like, this is a normal part of being in a school, like when a child is having a challenge, like you have meetings about them and not all of them, the parent needs to be present for, you know? And so Adelina really tried to draw a boundary for me, which I appreciate later around like really trying to protect me, you know, um, and still keep relationships with everyone. And the end, you know, I ended up having, you know, we were going to therapy in the middle of the day.

Kati Douglas (00:26:43):
We were going to OT in the middle of the day. We were doing all of these things and Adelina and Yvonne totally supported me in that. And I think if I was anywhere else that wouldn’t have happened and that kind of leadership is really where I’d take that. So I, you know, the commute got to be too much. And honestly, I, I think I needed just to change after a few years. I, I loved Buen Dia, but I needed something else. And so I took on this kindergarten role where I am now in the Fruitvale of Oakland.

Suzie Sherman (00:27:11):
So you’ve been there pretty consistently for about seven years or so.

Kati Douglas (00:27:16):
Yeah. Yeah. It will be my seventh, seventh year, next year. So I’ve been there for six years, and I was the kindergarten teacher there for three and a half, four years. And I really developed it into a “Buen Dia.” I was like, everybody’s playing, we’re having fun. We’re chanting, we’re joyous. It may have to be kindergarten, but we were going to do this. Families first really bringing in a lot of social emotional. And when I came, it was like kindergarteners were not playing. And it was like kind of military and bubbles in your mouth. And everybody freeze on the playground. And, you know, I came in with a Yvonne spirit, uh, which was, everybody’s getting articles on how your eighth graders should be playing to like everyday. (Laughs).

Suzie Sherman (00:27:56):
Uh-huh (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:27:58):
And I also learned from East Palo Alto that like I realized that at a certain point, identifying as a Black woman, while also having the privilege of light skin and being ethnically ambiguous was something that I needed to leverage for my community and for others. And so at a certain point, I really took this attitude of, fuck it. I’m calling everybody out.

Suzie Sherman (00:28:22):
Mmm (Affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:28:22):
I’m going to start saying stuff. And it was like, because I want this community to be better. The principals are the leaders. If I need to say something, I’ll say it. If I need to speak up, then I’ll speak up because I might lose my job. But I also know that there are other people in the room who will never say anything because they are way more disenfranchised than I am, way more oppressed than I am. Um…

Suzie Sherman (00:28:43):
Let me,

Kati Douglas (00:28:43):
and that goes for–

Suzie Sherman (00:28:46):
Oh, finish that, and then let me, let me,

Kati Douglas (00:28:47):
Oh, no, go ahead.

Suzie Sherman (00:28:48):
I’m I just want to explore that contradiction, maybe that internal contradiction a little bit more, because what you’re speaking to is being able to use your privilege as someone who maybe comes across as “not as Black” as some colleagues, right?

Kati Douglas (00:29:07):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:29:07):
Like a Black woman who comes across maybe ambiguous, racially, ethnically, um,

Kati Douglas (00:29:14):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:29:14):
using your, your privilege of light skin to be able to take a risk to the end goal of lifting up this dialogue and lifting up the interests of your colleagues. Yeah?

Kati Douglas (00:29:30):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:29:30):
And that’s a, that’s an internal contradiction to hold, right?

Kati Douglas (00:29:37):
Causes me a lot of anxiety (laughs.)

Suzie Sherman (00:29:43):
Is there a feeling of just really specifically in that role of taking leadership in a school where you’re working? Is there a feeling of, I don’t know, like guilt or shame that comes up around being able to use that privilege or being able to wield that privilege?

Kati Douglas (00:30:07):
No, I, I don’t think I have any, I think, I don’t have shame. I know I don’t have shame. There might be some feelings of guilt around like my privilege around the fact that I know that I’m going to get a better chance at life or at, in life by life. I mean, like if I’m pulled over by a cop.

Suzie Sherman (00:30:33):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:30:33):
Or when I go into a store, or as a threat, I am not as threatening as my children, as my husband, as my family members. And so I think because I know that there is some guilt around like, and I think the guilt is what drove me to be way more vocal about, and really not caring about whether I say something or not, or really not caring about whether, what I say to you, if it is the truth kind of hurts your feelings. Like I’m not, you know, kind of that fragility. You know, I think, you know, all of this really similarly happened around the time that Trayvon Martin was killed.

Kati Douglas (00:31:19):
I just remember, I remember that day, very vividly of when, um, his murderer wasn’t, was found, not guilty.

Suzie Sherman (00:31:30):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:31:30):
And I remember the fear that struck me having a child who had struggled with impulse control and regulation, had been seen as a threat from a very young age and then would, there was no control. I felt like a real loss of control.

Suzie Sherman (00:31:51):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:31:51):
It’s a very scary, deep dive to not have control over whether your child lives or not…

Suzie Sherman (00:31:57):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:31:57):
…or that their fate is determined by someone else because of whatever racist ideologies they’ve internalized and hold, held or hold, as well as the fact that justice will not be served. There’s no peace in that. And so that was when I shifted, there was a great shift within me of like, yeah, I identify as a Black woman. I also grew up in a small rural town.

Kati Douglas (00:32:31):
I didn’t have a lot of life experiences wasn’t discussions that were had this wasn’t discussion. You know, there were, there were race things at my school, but it wasn’t like this, you know? And so being young, having a young Black child there, there is, there is such great responsibility, especially being in a place of privilege as myself of like, how do I protect you? And what does that protection look like? How do I learn about this? And what is my role, not just as your mother, but as an educator and as a leader at schools where 80% of the population of the teachers are white and they are controlling the narrative around the future of Black and brown children.

Suzie Sherman (00:33:20):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:33:23):
And I think that’s what snapped in me that I cannot be silent because if I am silent, I am not doing my job. I am not protecting him.

Suzie Sherman (00:33:37):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:33:37):
I’m not protecting my family. I’m not protecting my children. I’m not protecting other people’s children.

Suzie Sherman (00:33:41):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:33:41):
And really what the fuck am I doing?

Suzie Sherman (00:33:43):
Right.

Kati Douglas (00:33:43):
As an educator in a school, in, you know, in the Fruitvale, of a culture, that’s not my own with Black and brown children with children who are new to this, to the states, you know, different languages. What am I doing? If I’m saying that I’m educating you and I take this role seriously, and I’m not standing up and saying, when things are not right…

Suzie Sherman (00:34:07):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:34:07):
…like in this school setting or in Target or on Facebook or whatever, like, you kn–and there’s also a protection that has to happen too, because as a person, when people of color speak up, it is scary. It doesn’t take away the fear from me of saying something. It is so scary to say something, because what will happen is that there’s like a gang mentality of like, “Oh my god, you hurt, you hurt someone’s feelings.” Or, “You said that and they didn’t mean it.” And then you’re feeling like, well, shit, am I wrong? You feel completely gaslit.

Suzie Sherman (00:34:42):
Yes, um-hm. As if the, the complaint, the material complaint…

Kati Douglas (00:34:46):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:34:46):
that you’re making is less important than the white person’s feelings that you’ve hurt.

Kati Douglas (00:34:50):
Exactly. Yeah. Or the, or what they come back with is not actually, like, the statistical data is not actually like research. It’s like, “Oh, well, I, I got this article from X, Y, and Z.” And it’s like, “And what about Black-on-Black crime? And what about this? And what about ‘pull your boots, pull yourself up from bootstraps.’ What about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And it’s like, there’s only so much you can take of that. And, and, you know, and like have real boundaries. And so it would be so emotionally draining for me to say it. And at the same time, I have to say it.

Suzie Sherman (00:35:25):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:35:25):
Because if I don’t, that’s going to kill me more. I can’t guarantee that someone else is going to say it to you. You know? And I don’t want to come off of like this, like hero complex, or like “I’m saying something, I’m doing this work.”

Suzie Sherman (00:35:38):
No, no.

Kati Douglas (00:35:38):
Like that’s not what it is at all. It’s it at all. It’s more just like when we look back at the past year and like this whole thing of like, “Karens” of like white women who are like, basically calling the cops to like get folks arrested. And basically it’s a death sentence.

Suzie Sherman (00:35:55):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:35:55):
The things that folks of color have felt, or feared or known are finally being seen and brought to light, and you can’t contest it with feelings. You know, like those are things that I saw in EPA (East Palo Alto.) When you call a child “the worst child you’ve ever met before,” when you are shaming them, when you are calling them names or when you are like sending them out of class, like it starts when they enter our…

Suzie Sherman (00:36:21):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:36:21):
public school systems, it starts there, the compliance, the institutionalization of Black and brown bodies, the militarization, the following of rules of white people, no matter what, in all in the…

Suzie Sherman (00:36:36):
The presupposing of guilt, like.

Kati Douglas (00:36:38):
Yes. Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:36:38):
that these children are bad inherently.

Kati Douglas (00:36:43):
Exactly. Exactly. And at the same time, they’re not teaching them to read, they’re not giving them their one civil right. Which is teach them to read, teach them mathematics, make them whole people let them explore, let them play, let them be joyful. They don’t do that. And so, you know, I think that’s where it all kind of like broached, you know, kind of comes together for me, is that I have this one small space in the universe that I can speak out and say, and, um, I don’t think I can look my children or my husband in the eye and say, I love you unconditionally. If I don’t use my privilege in a way like that.

Suzie Sherman (00:37:25):
Yes. Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:37:28):
I just don’t think that I can. And so, and, and where I work now is it’s not just because of me because of like all people. And there’s been this strong, strong push for community and antiracism, and really building strong relationships with children and focusing on the whole child and all of that. I like to think that I had a small part to do with that, but it really is a community effort. And once one person says something, other people feel empowered to say things.

Suzie Sherman (00:38:01):
Right.

Kati Douglas (00:38:01):
It just really takes one person to be like, “No, that’s kind of fucked up,” you know, and really like pushing the narrative. And so now I am, I’m an assistant principal of instruction, kind of assistant principal for our TK – 2 grade level. And I love our school. I love my school. I love my colleagues. And we teach kids! Like in all the joyful, wonderful ways we believe in them.

Kati Douglas (00:38:27):
We love on them. We love on their families. I pop into classrooms just to laugh and see them. And I can’t hug them. I miss hugging kids. But I would just go in just to say, I love you and hug them. Like our teacher say, I love you to kids, which is something that you don’t really see, you know? And we’re one of, one of the model schools for reading. We’re so lucky that we’ve had folks from other school districts come to see like the way that we teach and read and implement. And the NAACP has been to our school and it’s been, I’m just really proud of where I work and I’m proud of the people and I’m proud of our community. And I know that we have a long way to go because we’re trying to dismantle an institution that has oppressed and basically killed the lives of children for years and years, since it was created for Black and brown children. But, you know, I think we are doing the work. And so, you know, this year, after a really hard year, I decided to step back and, and refocus on my children who have gotten the shaft this past year and a half. And also I’ve just been, I mean, we can go into this, but the men, my mental health has just been not great. Um, and

Suzie Sherman (00:39:42):
We are having a collective experience with this, right? And now that the world is opening up again and people are getting vaccinated. I think this is a, this is a critical point for everyone’s mental health, because I think we’ve all been compartmentalizing, a lot of really horrifying things this last year.

Kati Douglas (00:40:02):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:40:02):
And, um, and being isolated and kids being out of school and doing screen learning and, and everything that’s happened and being socially isolated, we’re all about to pop a gasket right now. Now that things are opening up, we kind of can pop the gasket.

Kati Douglas (00:40:22):
Yeah, it, yeah. And I think I do this thing and maybe everybody does this thing where like there ebbs and flows to my mental health. I just, I just know that at a certain point, when you can’t get out of bed and you’re just wrapped in your bathrobe and it feels hard to do anything, but you should probably take a, it’s probably a good idea to step back and, you know, and stop doing that to yourself. You know, and that’s kind of the decision that I’ve had the privilege to make.

Suzie Sherman (00:40:52):
Stop doing what?

Kati Douglas (00:40:53):
Like the grind. I think it’s, I think it’s the grind, you know, um, this past year, I think there’s been this whole narrative about like schools and teachers are heroes and wonderful and all of that, um, for making school and Zoom happen, which, god, is true. Like educators are a resilient bunch, but oh my god…

Kati Douglas (00:41:14):
As a school leader, it has been hell. It’s, you built an entirely new school in six weeks.

Suzie Sherman (00:41:23):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:41:24):
We’ve had no, we’ve had no break since the winter break of 2019. That was the last time there was a break for a school leader.

Suzie Sherman (00:41:32):
Right.

Kati Douglas (00:41:32):
And now, and then you had to make hybrid plans. And then now we’re making like what, there’s a lot of decision making like fatigue that’s happening for leaders, and trying to fill the gaps academically of what happened, social, emotionally of like really trying to respond to the deaths. And the tragedy that families have faced and poverty in and of itself is generational trauma going in with a pandemic and poverty and trying to live. And then what happens when we open back up and, you know, you don’t have money to pay the rent that you couldn’t pay for the past year. You know, all of that, that your family is facing, um, is really something that has been so awful for children and families.

Kati Douglas (00:42:20):
And so educators who have a close relationship to families are really taking that on. It’s really hard to have that boundary. So compartmentalizing and like, you know, for myself, I I’ve realized pretty strongly the past couple of years that I am an empath. And I definitely take on others’ feelings and emotions…

Suzie Sherman (00:42:37):
Uh-huh (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:42:37):
…and trying to, trying to navigate that. And wade through that of like, teachers, and families, and students, and my, you know, admin colleagues, and my children, and my husband, and my mom and my, you know, it’s been just so incredibly much, that I have to kind of make, when I say like, I have to stop doing this to myself. It’s like, I think I have to stop making myself so available all the time for everyone, and like take care of myself.

Suzie Sherman (00:43:09):
Yes.

(zipper sound)

Suzie Sherman (00:43:11):
Hello. Hello, it’s Suzie. We’ll hear more from Kati Douglas after this quick break. It just felt like a natural shift in our conversation at this point in the episode. So get up, take a stretch, get a glass of water, hydrate yourself, maybe head over to the Patreon page and sign up at patreon.com/nextthingpod and support And The Next Thing You Know. This is a totally independent podcast. I’m doing it all myself. I’d love to make this a more sustainable gig. So please give what you can on a monthly basis, you’ll get some really awesome bonus goodies. You’ll be able to nerd out with the entire crew of NextThingNerds. It’s just a good deal. Go do it. patreon.com/nextthingpod. Let’s get back to my conversation with Kati Douglas.

(zipper sound)

Suzie Sherman (00:44:00):
So at the same time, kind of in the same trajectory that you’ve been developing your professional life as an educator, you’ve also been developing a skill set in photography.

Kati Douglas (00:44:15):
Yeah!

Suzie Sherman (00:44:15):
When did that start? When did you start liking photographs? Was it way back in the days of Polaroid pictures?

Kati Douglas (00:44:23):
Oh man. Well, you know, there’s one, my mom has many great qualities, but one of the best is that she is a picture taker. She still has not finished the scrapbooks from all of our years. Like every, you know, whenever I talk to her on the phone, she’s like, I’m scrapbooking, I’m trying to finish up these books. They’re 50 pages of each of you, you know, like she takes so many pictures, and I remember growing up having Polaroids, or even at that point, I think when I was like maybe eight or nine, like the disposable cameras came out, that was a hit. And I remember taking pictures and having boxes of pictures, you know, from Michael’s or something, like those, those paper boxes that, you know, you stored or binders and albums. And they’re all in my garage now. And when I was in high school, I was in the yearbook.

Kati Douglas (00:45:14):
Um, my mom bought me a film camera. It’s a Canon. And, um, I went around taking pictures. I loved it when I had Trey, I took so many pictures and I remember his dad, I think for, I think my first mother’s day, he bought me at that point, the first digital camera that I’ve ever had. And it was a crop sensor, digital camera. And I just, yeah, I just took pictures and pictures. And then, um, when I got, um, pregnant with Max, I, after he was born, I suffered from some pretty severe postpartum depression, to the point where, you know, I took pictures, but it was like, I’m trying to document this. And I think at around three or four months, I just like slid. And I remember being in a place of like, I think I turned to Jamon, who’s now my husband, at that, at that time, um, I turned to him and I was like, you know, I just don’t think it matters if I’m here. Like, I’m pretty sure that you guys are gonna be okay.

Suzie Sherman (00:46:19):
Hmm.

Kati Douglas (00:46:19):
And he just kind of looked at me and was like, oh god. So I got into therapy (laughs.)

Kati Douglas (00:46:29):
And, um,

Suzie Sherman (00:46:31):
He was able to help you recognize how bad that moment was.

Kati Douglas (00:46:35):
Oh yeah. I think I scared him. And I didn’t feel like scary inside. And you know, like I, I felt like completely disconnected. And I think that happens for a lot of new moms, where you feel disconnected and there’s this weird space around, like, I want to be alone and kind of quarantine with my kid. And at the same time, like I need other moms or people that I love around me that are my community to like, tell me this is okay, or that I’m doing the right thing, or just be with me because I’m alone. And I’m trying to juggle, you know, this point, my husband had gone back to work. I have a newborn who’s attached to me 24/7. All I can do in a day is get to try and pick ’em up from school and come home.

Kati Douglas (00:47:20):
And in between that, like, I am not a person. I’m touched out. I’m taking care of other humans, 24/7. I don’t know who I am anymore. I don’t understand my body anymore. And this is my second kid, you know, like it really is. There’s not enough love and warmth and community that’s given to moms. And at this time, like, you know, my friends came by or they would call me, but they either had older kids or they didn’t have kids themselves. And I also don’t think they understood what I was going through, and I definitely didn’t voice it. Cause I think if I did, like, you know, they would have stepped in pretty quickly, but I don’t think I, I knew I was losing it until I was like off the cliff. And, and that happened to me again this year too, where it’s like, you’re, you’re okay. You’re okay. You’re okay. And you’re just like, poof! And you, and you kind of are like head in the sand and like can’t get out and don’t realize, so…

Suzie Sherman (00:48:14):
So how, how old is Max?

Kati Douglas (00:48:16):
He’s four.

Suzie Sherman (00:48:17):
Okay. Yeah. So this is all happening this first time that you’re having this really severe postpartum depression…

Kati Douglas (00:48:26):
Uh-huh, yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:48:26):
Is about four years ago…

Kati Douglas (00:48:29):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:48:29):
…and then, or three-ish years ago.

Kati Douglas (00:48:32):
Yeah, so…

Suzie Sherman (00:48:33):
…and then this last time is kind of more of a, maybe more of a response of this, this year of isolation and being cut off, from community.

Kati Douglas (00:48:45):
Yeah. And I think overworking not having a break, trying to juggle kids that are home and being on and being an administrator and not, and trying to help and, and be with everyone while also like so constantly worried about children and families, and trying to manage the fear of a pandemic and keeping my family safe. I think I, I operate on a high level anxiety as it is. And then also I think the Black Lives Matter movement, the death of George Floyd, like all of the things that you’re seeing on social media, like that kind of grief pattern that Black folks go through is really hard. You see the death and it feels like someone you, you love and know has died.

Suzie Sherman (00:49:35):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:49:35):
And then there’s fear. And then there’s out of control. Like you cannot control this, and then there’s, “What do I do?” And then there’s the conversations with your kids.

Kati Douglas (00:49:44):
And then there’s the conversation with your family. And then it’s like, a checking on everybody and how do we align and what do we do moving forward? And, and then it happens again.

Suzie Sherman (00:49:54):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (00:49:54):
And I think with Treyson being older this year, and he like walks the dog by himself, you know, and we’re trying to give them these levels of responsibility in the neighborhood, and also, know, like making sure, do our neighbors know him? Do they understand who he is? “Don’t walk with a hoodie, don’t walk with your things, with earbuds in your ears, keep your head on a swivel. Don’t go too far. Don’t go out at night, go at this time during the day.” Um, “if someone stops you, hands up immediate(ly),” like an even all of those things,

Suzie Sherman (00:50:28):
And even then.

Kati Douglas (00:50:28):
(whispers) it doesn’t matter.

Kati Douglas (00:50:33):
And so how do I juggle letting my child grow up and needing to do the things that he needs to do? Because if I’m so lucky, and he makes it to adulthood, I need him to know how to do these life skills, and how do I protect him and not helicopter parent him. Because even if I’m there, I can’t save him.

Suzie Sherman (00:50:54):
Uh-huh (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:50:54):
And that kind of grief and fear is immobilizing at times.

Suzie Sherman (00:51:04):
Constant background of that stress and that fear.

Kati Douglas (00:51:08):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:51:08):
That’s just part of your base level of functioning.

Kati Douglas (00:51:11):
Oh, always in the back of my head, back of my mind. And not just from Treyson, for my husband, the fact that he’s been able to be home this past year has been a great relief. You know, he got pulled over very soon after George Floyd, um, was murdered.

Suzie Sherman (00:51:28):
Oy.

Kati Douglas (00:51:28):
And we live in Alameda now and he got pulled over.

Kati Douglas (00:51:32):
And I just remember him telling me that. And I’m like, “You can’t go out, you can’t leave.” And you know, “can’t go out at night. You can’t leave anymore. You can’t do this.” You know, even in Alameda, I think we live across from like this shopping space. And so I think he went there and he was walking back and it was night. And, you know, he’s standing there, and all of a sudden the flood lights come on and he, and like, you know, two minutes later a police car is right behind him. You know, like as he’s walking into the house, like it is immediate. Like you have to constantly be aware of your surroundings.

Suzie Sherman (00:52:06):
Yeah.

Kati Douglas (00:52:06):
and constantly be there. And I think this feeling for me of being out of control and not being able to know and wondering is something that plagues me, and plagues others.

Kati Douglas (00:52:18):
And I think others are maybe able to compartmentalize it well, maybe they’re not, maybe we’re all living with this high cortisol level of stress and…

Suzie Sherman (00:52:28):
Yes, yes, all those things.

Kati Douglas (00:52:30):
Yeah. Anyway, going back to Max and, and PPD, I, Jamon got me. He’s like, I know you love to take pictures. He got me this course with this local photographer who had taken or who I knew, or she had taken Mother’s Day pictures of Max and I, and she was doing a course for local moms on like capturing childhood. And she, um, um, it was the first time I was in a space with other moms and I was, you know, Max was four or five months. I was so scared to leave. I didn’t even want to leave. You know, the first day he forced me out of the house. And, um, I just remember being in a space and she started with like, why are you here?

Kati Douglas (00:53:06):
Tell me about your job. You know, something like that. And I was one of the last people to go and I’m glad I was the last person to go because I don’t think I would have led with how much I was struggling, but I was in a space where other people were struggling too. And I realized like, oh, this is just something people don’t talk about.

Suzie Sherman (00:53:24):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:53:24):
You know, like I think after Trey, I had him when I was young and I went back to school two weeks after he was born, because that’s what I had to do. I went back to work two weeks after he was born, I was not ready. And that’s what I had to do. And I’m sure, I know I was not okay. I know nothing was okay, but I had no choice. And that’s what I had to do.

Kati Douglas (00:53:45):
And I think being in a space of like, oh, I finally had maternity leave and I was home by myself and it was overwhelming and I didn’t know who I was, you know? So I went there and I realized like taking portraits is actually a pretty mindful practice for myself. I kind of get to zone out and just be in the moment and realize that I wasn’t actually ever in the moment I was just trying to get to the next thing. Even now, it’s still kind of hard for me to be in the moment. I’m like, all right, what needs to happen next? What’s on my to-do list. What is this? What is that? And, um, I came home from that and realized, I think I told my husband, I was like, I’m going to do this. I’m going to practice. And I, I think I want to be a photographer.

Kati Douglas (00:54:26):
And he was like, okay, fine.

Suzie Sherman (00:54:28):
Haha!

Kati Douglas (00:54:28):
You know, but I’m one of those people that once I decide what I’m going to do, like I’m, I’m going to do it. So I went full in, I started taking more workshops. I practiced, I, I started my business and it was really slow at first. And I don’t even want to look at those first pictures and see what they look like. And I’m four years in now, and I really love it. And I think one thing that I love the most that draws me to it is motherhood. Of course, I, I love all families and parents, and I want to capture that, but there’s something about motherhood that really, I love capturing the moments and the time and the small moments that pass really closely, uh, close by. And I think in particular, Black motherhood, um, there is definitely a narrative and a stereotype around Black families and Black parents.

Kati Douglas (00:55:25):
And it’s just not true. I want to capture all the joy, and all the moments for all families. And in particular, I want to capture all the joy and the love and the small moments for folks who are not traditionally shown who are, have not been given, uh, a space or a platform or who have not been able to tell their stories. You know, I, I border on documentary and lifestyle, and I just love telling stories of families. And each individual story is so different because every family is so different. And I think that that is just like so beautiful. I definitely know that my time being in education has helped me to connect with children, connect with families in a really like deeply rooted way. And I try to come in and really try to embody like who their family is, what they want documented, um, to tell, to be really honest about who they are. And man, it’s a really selfish thing that I do because it gives me so much joy. (laughs)

Suzie Sherman (00:56:37):
(Laughs) It sounds to me like overall, you need to be a little more selfish, Kati…

Both (00:56:42):
(Laughing)

Suzie Sherman (00:56:42):
…so that’s good. It’s so good that you have that crossover with the, with your photography work, where it’s a practice, it sounds like for you of being able to be present in a moment and capture these images and that’s a joyful practice for you. It sounds really good.

Kati Douglas (00:57:02):
Yeah. It’s pretty fun. And I’ve been so lucky along the way that I have a community of folks who refer me or who have allowed me to take their pictures or who have said like, oh, I work for this company. Why don’t you come do our headshots or (inaudible), and there’s been this space within photography where I constantly live with imposter syndrome where I’m like, I’m like, what am I going to fuck up with this? (Laughs) You know, like, but I am trying to push myself…

Suzie Sherman (00:57:36):
But you fuck up with love, so that’s really good.

Kati Douglas (00:57:39):
You know, when you’re operating a machine and you fuck up, it’s like, oh, there’s only so much I can bring this back, you know? Um, but I’ve been given opportunities and I’ve really tried to embody the same kind of spirit of like, you know, speaking up in a room, using my privilege in a way of like, I’m going to try this. Even if I feel like I can’t do it. Or if I feel like I don’t have the knowledge, I’m going to try this because if I say no, or if I don’t do it a lot of the times, I’m the only person of color in the room, or I’m the only person of color that’s the photographer, you know, and like a lot, you know, a lot of businesses or corporations have this whole like minority thing that they, that they’re doing, or like for women, that they try and hire contractors that are women or minorities, which is beautiful.

Kati Douglas (00:58:28):
And a lot of times for me, because I am functioning on such high anxiety all the time and doubting myself, I’m constantly thinking, do I deserve to be in this space?

Suzie Sherman (00:58:38):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (00:58:38):
And I want to make sure that even if I’m fucking up and I’m in this space, that at least they’re going to see someone who’s different and maybe a different type of photographer or giving something different. And they might give space to someone else who could be different or a different type of photographer, you know? And so, or the fact that others have paved the way for me. And I don’t deserve to be saying like, I don’t, I, I can’t be here. You know, like there are so many other, there’s so many wonderful photographers of color that come before me and who have paved the way. And like, I think that if I’m going to say that I’m a photographer, I just need to go and like be in the space, if that makes sense. So

Suzie Sherman (00:59:23):
“Act as if,” in a in a sense, right? Like that expression?

Kati Douglas (00:59:27):
I’m constantly just acting like, I know what’s going on. I’m like, oh yeah, this is fine. And I’m like, what is happening? You know, like, why isn’t this working or what’s going on? And I’m trying to like, really build…

Suzie Sherman (00:59:38):
It’s just a process. It’s a, it’s a constant process of reminding ourselves that we have something to offer, right? Like…

Kati Douglas (00:59:49):
Yeah, well, you know…

Suzie Sherman (00:59:49):
You have something to offer and you’re there and you’re present and you’re going to do your best.

Kati Douglas (00:59:55):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (00:59:55):
I’m going to continue to use this phrase. Like you’re going to fuck up with love. I don’t know. That’s, that’s an awesome, I’m going to start using that phrase for sure.

Kati Douglas (01:00:05):
Haha, do it!

Suzie Sherman (01:00:05):
But basically it’s like, we all up. It’s okay to make mistakes. Um, and your presence there is unique and valuable regardless of the external narratives that are coming at us.

Kati Douglas (01:00:22):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:00:22):
or that we are internalizing. And that’s, that’s a constant, lifelong process.

Kati Douglas (01:00:28):
For sure.

Suzie Sherman (01:00:29):
Of having to show up in situations over and over again, and feel like we have to prove ourselves and reminding ourselves in our internal process that we have to buffer against those external messages that are telling us that we’re not valuable.

Kati Douglas (01:00:44):
Yeah. It’s so true, you know, for anyone. And I think for folks who really, I think it’s also a symptom of, for, at least for me, that I feel that way more when like I’m in a am in like a bout of depression or high anxiety, or like really intrusive thoughts like that of like, I’m not good enough. I can’t be here. And regardless of what I’m doing may be parenting. It could be in education or in a leadership role. It could be in photography. It could be like, it could be anything. And I’m constantly in a battle of like, I’m not good enough. I’m not good enough. I don’t know how to do this. What do I do? And then kind of needing to push myself to be like, Nope, gotta be there. Nope. Got to show up.

Suzie Sherman (01:01:25):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:01:25):
Even if it’s really difficult and really hard. And also I wouldn’t be a photographer if I, if I hadn’t been that depressed, I would’ve never done it. It would have never been a thing that I knew to bring me joy. And I think, you know, we kind of emailed about this a little bit of like your lowest lows bring about, it allows for such change. It allows for growth. And if you’re constantly…

Suzie Sherman (01:01:50):
It opens up a window or a possibility,

Kati Douglas (01:01:52):
Yeah. I feel like if you’re constantly floating and feeling like, and nobody feels great all the time, everybody is struggling with something. And so if you’re constantly just like, I’m okay, I’m okay. I’m okay. Like where’s the growth, where’s the challenge? Where’s the friction that like causes something new to grow from it? And so I think that I fucked up a lot and I’ve had a lot of friction, and I’ve just been really privileged to be given the grace from others to continue to grow. And I know that not everybody is given that. And I think the fact that like, you know, photography education has shown me community, photography has shown me community in a new way. You know, there’s a lot of experience from other photographers from others who allow me to like share space with them, from clients who allow me to document them and capture their most precious memories. Like it is such an honor to be in the space with anyone that I document, but I’ve just been given. I think what it is is that I need to give myself the space to, to fuck up and, and be okay with it. And that it doesn’t make me less valuable. Yes, that is definitely the journey I’m on.

Suzie Sherman (01:03:11):
It’s really.Yeah. I relate. I feel you. Like when we’re in the moment of having made mistakes, or we’re in the moment of feeling like we haven’t actualized something in the way that we want to, we’re in that feeling, you know…

Kati Douglas (01:03:28):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:03:28):
in that feeling of, “I’m not good enough,” in that feeling of “I’ve fucked up,” in that feeling of “I’m never going to get this right.” And in our more grounded moments, we can kind of step back from that and observe ourselves and see the long picture, which is this mistake is teaching me something, this moment has something to offer me. What can I learn from it? And how will I do better next time?

Kati Douglas (01:03:58):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:03:58):
Or even if I don’t do better next time, how can I learn from that next mistake that I’m going to make have the, the positive attributes of those moments, be part of our narrative moving forward as well, kind of being able to embrace, embrace all the stuff that causes us that friction.

Kati Douglas (01:04:20):
Yeah. And it’s…

Suzie Sherman (01:04:21):
Own it.

Kati Douglas (01:04:21):
And it’s yeah. And it’s hard. And I think, you know, when we go back to like that white supremacy culture, that is not, that is, that is the, what is that antithesis?

Suzie Sherman (01:04:33):
Yes.

New Speaker (01:04:33):
That’s my big college word for the day. That’s the end of the antithesis at that of like, I was never taught that like mistakes were okay.

Suzie Sherman (01:04:42):
Right.

Kati Douglas (01:04:42):
Because it never was okay. Like you gotta be okay. But I think that’s also, you know, this culture of being perfect and resilient all the time and never fucking up and all of those things, like it doesn’t, it doesn’t teach you anything other than to be stressed and anxious all the time and feeling like you’re a fuck up when you inevitably fuck up. And so kind of really being a parent or an educator or someone who’s just like, yeah, this happens. And like trying to undo all of that, you know, unlearn all of those things as an adult and try and pass it on to, you know, my children or people I’m in a classroom with or colleagues.

Kati Douglas (01:05:28):
It really is important. I know, like we started this conversation where I’m like, I tell people if they’re racist, whether it like hurts their feelings or not, but also these conversations would be so much better if everyone was able to realize that they are not perfect and we all fuck up. And even if you say, or do something like you can learn from it…

Suzie Sherman (01:05:49):
That’s right.

Kati Douglas (01:05:49):
…rather than putting up a boundary and a wall, you know, like, and at the same time, I also need to understand that that’s not my job to do for others. You know, like people have to start to embrace this and talk about it more that like fucking up is okay. If, if you hurt someone or something happens or you’ve done something that you didn’t know, or even if you inevitably did and you come around to it, the growth and the learning and the healing is in the acknowledgement of the fuck up.

Suzie Sherman (01:06:18):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (01:06:18):
And doing better the next time.

Suzie Sherman (01:06:19):
That’s right.

Kati Douglas (01:06:20):
And that’s all anybody wants because we’re, we’re all humans and we all want to be valued and loved. And inevitably the culture and society that we grow up in and the homophobia, the racism, the xenophobia, all, all of that, all the isms, all the phobias, make it so that we just like live in these little bubbles and have to construct boxes and boundaries to keep ourselves safe.

Suzie Sherman (01:06:46):
Um-hm (affirmative.) You just articulated something that I don’t think I’ve even ever thought about before. And it’s around the cultural dialogue we’re having around quote unquote “cancel culture,” which completely problematic term. And I think a lot of, I think a lot of folks on the left and progressive end of things are unwittingly using that term, even though I think it’s a right wing construction, um, right.

Kati Douglas (01:07:13):
Haha, that’s how it goes.

Suzie Sherman (01:07:13):
It’s a way to tell. Right. Um, because the right wing is really good at controlling the cultural dialogue and have for decades. Right. But that piece of the dialogue, I think that you’re just, you just gave me some insight on, which is that regardless of what political framework we’re coming from, or regardless of what subcultures we’re in, or what cultures we’re in, we’ve all internalized that white supremacy culture, we’ve all interpolate–. We’ve all, we’ve all. We’ve, we’ve all, what’s the word that I was using just now?

Kati Douglas (01:07:54):
Interpolated internalized.

Suzie Sherman (01:07:56):
Internalized. Yes. Thank you.

Kati Douglas (01:07:58):
You’ve got much better college words than me, Sooze. I mean, you, you are really,

Suzie Sherman (01:08:03):
Haha, I think interpol–interpolating is more of a, I think a psychology term that I got in my psychology training.

Kati Douglas (01:08:11):
It’s a good word.

Suzie Sherman (01:08:11):
Uh, but internalized, internalized is really, I think, yeah, what I’m going for here. But, um, this is one of those moments that I’m going to edit a lot because I have a lot of pauses and, um, but, um, it’s okay. Um, because we can make mistakes and not being perfect. Right. So…

Kati Douglas (01:08:30):
I think in this time you get to edit it. (Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:08:35):
(Laughs) Um, what you were saying, it’s like everyone on both, both people let’s say on both sides of that transaction, of being called out on something have internalized those rules about you have to be perfect. And there’s a power dynamic here. If, if you, as a person of color are calling out a white person on a racist behavior, uh, there’s an, there’s an internalized power dynamic there between you and the white person you’re calling out. You’ve both internalized those, those rules of white supremacy. And so you’re taking considerable risk to bring that up to a white person. And the usual way it’s gone is that the white person falls apart because they can’t handle it. Not only can they not handle it because they’re accustomed to a power dynamic that you’ve just flipped on them, but they’re also, they also fall apart because they’ve also interpolated those very negative rules of white supremacy and capitalism that tell them it’s not okay to make a mistake. And I, I hadn’t really thought about it in that way before, right? Like that’s part of the falling apart, that shame of fucking up.

Kati Douglas (01:09:58):
Yeah. It’s a lot of shame. It’s a lot. Cause you know what, in order to live in this world and continue to like be somewhat okay, I have to believe there are way more wonderful, kind, generous, good people than there are not, and you can still be a wonderful kind, generous person and fuck up big time.

Suzie Sherman (01:10:25):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (01:10:25):
And the difference between healing a relationship and completely having a dissipate is being able to acknowledge the shame that you’re feeling, and know where it’s rooted, and where it comes from, and work past it.

Suzie Sherman (01:10:41):
Uh-huh.

Kati Douglas (01:10:41):
And try to undo that learning for yourself, because, and that’s the real work that’s, uh, that’s the antidote to white fragility. That’s the antidote to fragility in general. That’s the antidote to like, not being able to make a mistake or perfectionism, right. Like that’s, that’s the real thing, is being…

Suzie Sherman (01:11:00):
Not being able to move through differences or conflict. Yeah.

Kati Douglas (01:11:03):
Yeah. And, and I have to say like generationally, unless your parents were a psychotherapist or something. I think we all kind of have that around, like in the same age bracket, you know, like we, weren’t taught to talk about our feelings or to know what shame was, or to be able to understand where we feel it in our body or, or know like what we’re processing. We were not taught to be mindful of ourselves. So therefore we can’t expect everyone to know to be mindful of others, but that doesn’t take away the responsibility of the work you have to do as the human that like, that still has to happen. Even if you weren’t taught it, you know?

Suzie Sherman (01:11:43):
Yes. we’re, we’re each coming from different places culturally. And in terms of what we’ve been exposed to in our education or in our, in our relationships in community,

Kati Douglas (01:11:55):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Suzie Sherman (01:11:55):
We’re all coming from different places around this stuff. But yes, we all have to attend to that work at one point or another in our lives…

Kati Douglas (01:12:02):
You gotta do it.

Suzie Sherman (01:12:02):
That’s a lifelong process.

Kati Douglas (01:12:05):
For sure. Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:12:06):
Let me, let me back up a little bit. I want to ask you a little bit more about how you articulate your photography work. You had said, and I know that your, your professional website says this as well, that you sort of straddle a border between documentary and lifestyle.

Kati Douglas (01:12:24):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Suzie Sherman (01:12:24):
Um, I want to dig a little into what kinds of images are you excited to capture? If you can get really specific and kind of granular, when are you capturing images that help you tell a story about the people that you’re photographing?

Kati Douglas (01:12:43):
Yeah. This is not a cop out to that answer, but I think it really depends on the people.

Suzie Sherman (01:12:53):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (01:12:53):
And my work is super relational in that, you know, before I work with you, we have a phone conversation and you tell me a little bit about yourself. We, you know, we have a connection in some type of way that makes sense. I send a questionnaire with some really pointed questions about like, what are moments or times, you know, you don’t want to forget. If it’s a family, what does parenthood mean to you? You know, tell me about the adults or your partners, or whomever’s going to be involved. What do they do? You know? And I really try to get to know people. So before I go in, I’m like, all right, this is Eric, he likes to mountain bike. He loves singing this song with his kid.

Kati Douglas (01:13:33):
They play the drums together, you know what I mean? Things like that. And so I feel like I’m walking into people that I know a little bit. And so of course, there’s always this point of like a little bit of awkwardness. I’ve got a camera. Some people are like, I hate cameras, you know, all of that for whatever their reasons are. And so I have to kind of come at it in a really like individual way of how we start documenting. Sometimes families are so worried or stressed or whatever else that I, I straddle the more lifestyle, where I say like, “Okay, this is where the sun or the light is like, let’s get you here. Let’s play a game together. Let’s do this.” You know, whatever it is. And then it, if there’s young children, there’s usually like tickling or songs or whatever they like involved.

Kati Douglas (01:14:20):
Right. And then we kind of just go from there. And then as people get more comfortable and as children become more comfortable and families, and it starts to just move into a place of what they would normally do and how they normally are.

Suzie Sherman (01:14:35):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:14:35):
And none of my sessions are timed. So that means, in the grand scheme of a session, if it’s a newborn, then we’re going to go through the cycle of eating, changing, feeding, sleeping, all of those things. And so I’m going to capture the big picture of your day.

Suzie Sherman (01:14:53):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:14:53):
If it’s a family, then it goes into the playing and the fun and the small moments of, you know, maybe they fall and get hurt. How do you snuggle them? How do you calm them? Like, what do you do, you know, um, and kind of work through all of that until like kids are melting down and done, you know, um, snack breaks, all of those things, you know, um, I think what lends well in my work is that I am really child-focused.

Kati Douglas (01:15:16):
And so I have a lot of children in my work, and I know child development. So I’m, you know, I don’t have a timed session. I also know adult learning.

Suzie Sherman (01:15:26):
Uh-huh (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:15:26):
And so I pair these two things together where I’m like, and I know myself as a, as a parent. And I’m like, look, this is what stresses me out about photography shoots. I want to take that away. I have a kid who’s going to run and climb the rocks. How am I going to get him back and not get pissed at him? I have another kid who may or may not talk to you. What am I going to do about it? You know what I mean? Like, what do I do about that? And so I try and find all the answers to that for families. And it just basically means that I’m just super flexible.

Kati Douglas (01:15:56):
And I really am like reading body language. So moments or pictures that really tell the story are like the ones that I said. It could be the one where we’re walking in downtown Oakland and the dad and the family are looking through a window at a storefront that they see all the time and they love this particular thing. And I’m just capturing the moment and the connection between the dad with his arms around his children. And they’re looking at the storefront and there’s, you know, wide-eyed, and they’re loving it and they’re pointing. It could be something like that. Or it could be that they’re in the home. And one parent is feeding a baby on the couch and the other one, and the other parent is playing with the older one and they’re separated, but they’re together. And so I work with this thing called “circle of connection” that no matter what we’re doing, you are connected and you look like a circle.

Kati Douglas (01:16:52):
It could be that you’re far away, but you’re making connection with your eyes, or it could be that you’re together. And you’re all embraced together if there’s space. And I don’t necessarily like to work with space and distance. Um, cause I feel like it gets, sometimes it feels chaotic to me. Sometimes it’s okay. Like if they’re walking towards each other or something, but as just in my art, I don’t like that. Uh, kind of anxiety feeling that distance feels in a, in a picture,

Suzie Sherman (01:17:17):
Mmm, um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:17:17):
you know, I like them to be connected and together. Um, a lot of laughing, a lot of joy, a lot of emotions. Um, you know, and then when I’m working with adults, like just a person, I just had this, uh, session with a mom who had had multiple miscarriages and she just wanted to document like the emotions and feelings.

Kati Douglas (01:17:37):
And it really just was like how she was grounded with the earth, you know, and what that felt like in a hand on her heart and the jewelry her mother had given her, and like playing with the shadows of that, you know, or a couple together, there’s this picture I have of these two brides who are so cute. And they’re like under a veil and they’re like giggling together. And that was their moment. That was their day. Was them just being together and giggling it, it felt like they were having such a moment by themselves, and I’m in their world. Every picture that I take that I love is, I’m in their world. They’re not looking at me. It’s not my world. It’s theirs. So does that make sense? Sorry. I’m kind of, I’m just like babbling.

Suzie Sherman (01:18:18):
Absolutely. And none of that was babbling.

Kati Douglas (01:18:22):
(Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:18:22):
Um, I think it really demonstrates the way you answered that, at first you were like, I think this is going to be a cop out to the question…

Kati Douglas (01:18:29):
(Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:18:29):
…that you asked, but it wasn’t at all, because I think what you’re demonstrating there is your process as a photographer is driven by curiosity about the people that you’re taking photos of, and you are able to immerse yourself and disarm folks enough, get comfortable enough, and not worry about the timeframe, allow people to just naturally surface themselves, so that you can capture those moments,

Kati Douglas (01:19:00):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:19:00):
which is beautiful. And it, and it, and the way you answered it also really expressed like how your professional experience in your life as an educator and your personal experience as a mom really informs the way that you can hold your photography subjects in a space where you can get photos that feel true.

Kati Douglas (01:19:26):
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s the thing is I want it to feel true. I want it to feel real and raw and authentic and I will photograph almost–I’m like almost anyone cause like I’m not going to photograph someone in the KKK–(laughs) but like, I will, I want to document, like I said, and I think I, you know, there’s something around Black families that brings me, but there’s also something around just people in general whose stories are not told or whose lives have not been valued or who are different and everybody’s different. Right?

Suzie Sherman (01:20:04):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:20:04):
And so I think sometimes I get clients who are like, “By the way, you know, we’re two dads,” or, “By the way, we’re two moms,” or, “By the way, I’m a single mom” or “a single dad,” or, “By the way, this, this was a surrogate baby,”

Suzie Sherman (01:20:16):
Um-hm, um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:20:16):
or, you know, “By the way, my kids are Bl–you know, and I’m white,” and it’s like, and I’m just like, great.

Kati Douglas (01:20:22):
You know? And I think there are so many things in my life that have allowed me, you know, my experiences that are such privileges, I’ve been able to share space with so many different people. I’ve been able to document so many different people. And because my family is every single different shade of brown, I know how to edit for that, which is not something…

Suzie Sherman (01:20:41):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:20:41):
…that everyone knows how to do, or feels comfortable doing. Um, we can go into the whole racist thing of like, you know, photography and the color scheme and how it was made for, you know, not melanated skin, but there’s all those kinds of things. And I feel, so I feel like I’m living in my truth a little bit in photography. I feel myself the most, if that makes sense, I do an education when I’m in a classroom with kids, but I feel like I get to be myself. And the more I get to be myself and let myself be the better the process is for everyone.

Suzie Sherman (01:21:15):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:21:15):
And I don’t think I’ve ever been in a space in my life where I could feel, and be myself, because of the way I look because of my identity, because of experiences, because of shame that I felt about being a young mom or being a single mom or whatever, whatever it is. Right? I, I get to just be.

Suzie Sherman (01:21:36):
Um-hm, it really feels to me like a culmination process of all these different threads of your life that you’re able to really, um, be present with in your, in your photography work.

Kati Douglas (01:21:48):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:21:48):
It’s totally self-directed in that way. And it’s informed by your experiences, um, as a person of color, your experiences as a woman, your experience, as an educator, as a parent, um, you know, at someone moving through the world, gathering all these experiences, you’re able to bring it all to your photography work,

Kati Douglas (01:22:10):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:22:10):
Your equity, your, you know, your, your equity values, um, all these different threads come together.

Kati Douglas (01:22:17):
Yeah, definitely. I always, whenever I get an email in my inbox, that’s like, there’s someone that wants to work with me. And over time it has been like, it goes from, tell me your prices to now I get things that are like, “We really want to work with you because of your storytelling, or because of this.” And I’m like, wow. I never thought I would be here. I never thought that I would be at a place where people want me to take their picture, where my value is that I can document your story. And that’s where I’ve always wanted to be. And it doesn’t end. I have to keep growing. I have to keep going, but, damn, it feels really good to be doing something that I love. And even though I fuck up (big?) sometimes I get to share space with humans from all over the world who are amazing, and they want me to do it.

Suzie Sherman (01:23:08):
Yeah.

Kati Douglas (01:23:08):
You know, like they’re choosing me that feels, it’s really selfish. This is a whole selfish thing that I… (Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:23:15):
It’s beautiful, because you’re offering something that’s uniquely Kati.

Kati Douglas (01:23:21):
Yeah. Which is, which is funny because I think until this, till saying it out loud, I haven’t put all of these things together before, you know, like I’ve never, I was like trying to get ready for this podcast. And I was like, I don’t know the answers to what she’s going to ask me, you know, but it really is all of life’s paths like converging into one thing and being able to create art from joy and pain and experience and love and, and just of life and really being able to just come forth and, and bring something to others is really it’s, it’s really wonderful. Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:23:57):
It’s, I’m really thrilled for you that you’re, at this point in your career, four years into this, and really using all of your experience to inform it, you know, I should say also, um, you know, and just reflect back, that dealing with depression and anxiety and that mental health piece of it being formative in the first moments that you decided to take your photography class is really an experience that I think we don’t talk about all that much. We talk about depression and anxiety or mental, mental health issues, trauma as narrowing and constricting dynamics or, or influences on us, and they are, and also they can be expansive experiences. And those are part of our experiences of, it’s part of what makes us who we are…

Kati Douglas (01:24:51):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:24:51):
…what we’ve gone through, what our mental state is, how challenging it is to be in our bodies and move through the world.

Kati Douglas (01:25:00):
Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:25:00):
And you’re bringing all of that, and making it something beautiful and complex.

Kati Douglas (01:25:07):
Yeah. And I think the most important thing that I’ve learned and that’s really, you know, is that at least for me, and I’m sure for others, that when you’re in that depression or you’re in that, that state of anxiety all the time, that when you’re feeling like you’re not worthy or valued or everything is awful and you, you know, you, you need community. People need people. And I have been able to be expansive and I’ve been able to do this because I’ve been supported by so many people who didn’t have the same mindset that I did about myself at the time. That felt that I was worthy and valued, be it like my husband or my friends or friends of friends, or just people who took a chance on me, you know, that I hope that I am able to give that to others…

Suzie Sherman (01:25:55):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:25:55):
…whether it be in photography or anything else that, you know, people are valued, everyone is valued. And so everyone deserves things that make them happy and bring them joy and make them feel loved. And a lot of the time you need people around you who also believe in that for you and that, that gets you through

Suzie Sherman (01:26:14):
And help lift you up, help put you on your path.

Kati Douglas (01:26:20):
For sure. There’s the network is real community is real. (Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:26:25):
Yeah. And that’s really a lot of, that’s a big piece of how all of us have been suffering through this pandemic, even though we have ways to communicate and we have, you know, Zoom calls and Zoom support groups and social gatherings and stuff like that. It’s like, it’s not the same. (Laughs)

Kati Douglas (01:26:48):
Yeah. It’s not the same,

Suzie Sherman (01:26:49):
It’s not the same. I just, I was able just to, you know, I just recently moved to Portland and, um, I was living with my partner, uh, in Oakland, and now I live by myself in Portland. And so since February, I haven’t touched anyone else. Um, and just yesterday, was it yesterday? The day before? Oh, I think it was Saturday. I, um, I got to hug one of my best friends, Barry who lives here in Portland. And he was the first person I got to hug since, uh, I moved.

Kati Douglas (01:27:23):
That makes me want to cry, Sooze. (Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:27:24):
From Oakland. It was really, really wonderful. And I made sure that, that he was my, my first hug as well.

Kati Douglas (01:27:34):
Oh…

Suzie Sherman (01:27:34):
I’ve been able to spend some time with friends here in Portland, but just, you know, distanced. So, you know, um, outside in the backyard or, or taking a walk or something like that, I’ve had a couple of elbow bumps, you know,

Kati Douglas (01:27:47):
Yeah. Yeah.

Suzie Sherman (01:27:47):
like that’s the only, that’s the only thing

Kati Douglas (01:27:50):
Yeah, yeah. I’ve had a lot of air of had a lot of air hugs, (laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:27:56):
Uh-huh, yes, air hugs.

Kati Douglas (01:27:56):
Which don’t do really anything for anyone except the intention behind, “I just want to hug you!” (Laughs)

Suzie Sherman (01:28:00):
Yes, yeah, it’s not the same.

Kati Douglas (01:28:05):
It’s not. Yeah. I, um, I have a friend, I have a couple of friends that I haven’t been able to see since we’ve gotten vaccinated and I’m just like, I can’t wait to hug you. I just, you know, you don’t realize how I think you do, but you also don’t realize how important some people are or that hugging and that physical touch and that connection to those that you love the most, um, is until you’ve lost it for a year and a half.

Suzie Sherman (01:28:32):
Um-hm (affirmative.)

Kati Douglas (01:28:32):
And…

Suzie Sherman (01:28:33):
This is making, this is going to make us all, I think, reflect on and be a little bit, hopefully, a little bit more grateful for all of these simple things that we’ve been starving for this last year.

Kati Douglas (01:28:46):
Yeah. I think in a lot of ways, you know, this, this last year, is, I’m hoping will push everyone to be a little bit more expansive (laughs.)

Suzie Sherman (01:28:58):
Yes.

Kati Douglas (01:28:58):
You know, and, in all, in all the things, with ourselves, with others that, you know, we’re, we’re all able to take this and, and grow and not go back to the status quo.

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Suzie Sherman (01:29:10):
Thanks for joining us for that amazing conversation with Kati Douglas. If you’d like to check out Kati’s absolutely gorgeous photography, her website is xilophotography.com and that’s with an X, X I L O, xilophotography.com. Super big thanks to all my patrons for making this podcast happen. Whether you’re giving two bucks a month or 10 or 50 or a hundred, you’re making this show better, and a special shout out as always, to my Failure and Redemption level patrons, Noah, Melissa, Marck, Lisa, Kurt, Kristina, Jen, Jeannie, Heather, Elyse, Liz, Eidell, Bonnie, Barry, and Amy, and to my Serendipity level patrons, Steve and Cyndi, Micharelle, Laurie, Kristi, Dorian, Brittany and Jodi. Thanks so much for the support. The link once again, to become a patron is patreon.com/nextthingpod. We are And The Next Thing You Know. Subscribe in your podcast app, visit the website for subscribe links, transcripts, and all the social media links.

Suzie Sherman (01:30:33):
The website is nextthingpodcast.com. If you’re liking the show so far, one of the most helpful things you can do is tell your friends, share it on your social media with the hashtag #nextthingpod. You can also rate or review us at iTunes. And if you have an, And The Next Thing You Know story, and I know you do, write it down in an email or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to nextthingpod at gmail.com. We might feature it on a future episode. The banana peel is by Max Ronnersjö. Music is by Jon Schwartz. Thanks everybody we’ll talk soon. Or maybe not super soon. Let’s be honest.

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