Theme Music (00:00:00):
And The Next Thing You Know Theme by Jon Schwartz

Suzie Sherman (00:00:14):

This is And The Next Thing You Know. It’s a podcast about how our lives go exactly not as we planned them. I’m Suzie Sherman. Today on the podcast, it’s all Suz(s)ies, all the way down. I’m honored to share my conversation with celebrated author, editor, sex-positive feminist activist, and cocktail enthusiast, Susie Bright. If you’re new to the podcast and came here for your daily dose of Susie, welcome, I suggest pouring yourself a favorite warm beverage, with or without booze, and take some refuge from the winter storms here with us. More about my conversation with Susie Bright in a sec.

 

(00:00:50):

But did you know? And The Next Thing You Know is a totally independent podcast. I do it myself in the margins of days, betwixt better paying gigs and your support makes the show happen. If you’d like to help me talk to more really cool humans and get these deep, silly, and tender conversations out there, head over to patreon.com/nextthingpod. $5 gets you some fun bonus material, and $10 gets you a shout out in every single episode. I’ll only charge you for the months I produce a show, so you can just set it and forget it. Join the community of NextThingNerds at patreon.com/nextthingpod.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:01:34):

There’s no way I’m gonna do justice to Susie Bright’s list of credits and accomplishments, but she’s perhaps best known as one of our most influential sex positive feminist writers. She was the editor of On Our Backs magazine from 1984 to 1991, author of Susie Sexpert’s Lesbian Sex World, author and editor of scores of other books and erotica collections, and one of Hollywood’s first intimacy coordinators—before it was even a thing—on the set of Lana and Lily Wachowski’s film Bound. She continues to share her prolific work with the world as a film and culture critic, expert teacher of writing and publishing, and audio producer who brought Allison Bechtel’s groundbreaking Dykes To Watch Out For comics to life for Audible last year.

 

(00:02:22):

You must check out Susie’s substack at susiebright.ink for her brilliant writings, course offerings and her delicious cocktail recipes. Why am I talking about cocktails so much? Okay. So Susie and I got together to talk about our evolving relationships with booze. For a lot of us, the social isolation of the pandemic shifted our drinking habits. This was true for me, which I’ll talk about in the episode, and it was true for Susie and her partner Jon, talking to Susie about alcohol and drug use is a natural fit because we both come at it from a harm reduction perspective. Let’s be honest about how people choose to live and celebrate joy and minimize the harm. In the era of early HIV/AIDS, Susie contributed to a more transparent cultural dialogue celebrating sex and sexuality and helped us take the shame out of it. That’s how it’s done. This is my conversation with the delightful Susie Bright.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:03:24):

I dunno if you looked at the image, but obviously my stack of books was totally pandering to you. I had like Tristan Taormino’s Opening Up in that stack, and I had Vito Russo’s book in that stack, and

 

Susie Bright (00:03:35):

Oh, I thought, I thought that was your stock photo for, for um, informing people. And I was like, this is an awesome publicity photo for your podcast. It’s so cool.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:03:45):

I should use it. Um, yeah, for

 

Susie Bright (00:03:47):

Sure. Yeah, no, it’s really, it’s really good. Even if you don’t understand the queer stuff, it’s just the titles are exciting. Isn’t one of them “Kill Me Now” or it was funny. Please,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:03:57):

Please Kill Me. The Oral History of Punk. I’m sure you’ve come across that book. Yeah,

 

Susie Bright (00:04:01):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was awesome.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:04:03):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A favorite. No, I was totally, it’s a bespoke image for you.

 

Susie Bright (00:04:07):

<laugh>. I need one every day. Please, please send a bespoke image every day. <laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:04:14):

That, you know, careful what you wish for, Susie!

 

Susie Bright (00:04:16):

<laugh>

Suzie Sherman (00:04:17):

Uh, it’s good to see you sort of in the flesh and also on Zoom. Um, and we’re, it’s so funny, we’re so geographically close. I’m just in Campbell and you’re in Santa Cruz, presumably. So, um, but here we are, uh, via the internets. So, you know, it was a couple months ago that we set up this conversation and we sort of tripped into a, a possible topic. And I wanted to just get your sense also there was like an inciting incident about your topic. We were talking about like, I don’t know, like what is our relationship with booze now that we are in aging bodies and it sits differently in our bodies And what are we like, what are our rituals with booze and our history with booze? And the inciting incident that you talked about was your partner Jon’s, um, kind of abrupt stop during pandemic times. And I don’t know if, is he still not drinking?

 

Susie Bright (00:05:09):

We were just getting to know each other on the phone for the first time.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:05:13):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:05:14):

and joking about we’re so far from each other yet so close. We’re, we’re close in mileage, but yet we were using, uh, zoom and talking about how the pandemic had changed our social lives. And, you know, somehow instead of going into the sourdough bread making direction, we started talking about, are you drinking more, drinking less? Or did you, you know, try a couple of different things. And I said, I believe that we started off the pandemic naively thinking, oh, this will be a month or two.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:05:51):

Right.

 

Susie Bright (00:05:51):

You know, I remember thinking it’s ruining my birthday, you know, thinking that by time April rolled around all the birthday party people would be having fun

 

Suzie Sherman (00:06:01):

For sure.

 

Susie Bright (00:06:01):

And there was a sense of since we’re suffering so much, might as well pour another <laugh> another drink. You know, there was this sense of indulging one’s appetites. Um, I think, you know, more comfort foods, more drinking, more like, holy shit, what is this crazy disease? And will it wipe us out? And these kind of, um, being in a foxhole together.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:06:26):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:06:26):

I mean, when I think about it now, in relationship to how we drink, I mean, if drinking’s part of your life, there’s always a reason why. Um, it reminds me of my ex Honey Lee, who was a chain smoker more or less. And I remember making her take the survey about when is it a good time for a smoke? And basically every single possibility, she was like, yep, that’s a good time to <laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:06:54):

Absolutely.

 

Susie Bright (00:06:55):

If you’re tired,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:06:56):

I need to take a break.

 

Susie Bright (00:06:57):

You’re, yeah. If you’re up,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:06:58):

get some fresh air, if you will, and have a cig at the same time.

 

Susie Bright (00:07:01):

Yeah. If you’re nervous, if you’re not nervous, no matter what the occasion was, nicotine always was a good answer. And, uh, that gave us a good laugh to go through all that kind of a survey. And I think drinking also, you know, it can comfort you in a crowd. It can comfort you when you’re alone and when the world is going to hell in a hand basket, you often think, well, who cares about doing yoga and vegetarianism and taking care of myself? I’m going to, although I shouldn’t even say that ’cause those things can be pleasures for some people. But

 

Suzie Sherman (00:07:38):

Absolutely

Susie Bright (00:07:38):

my joke is that we often say, oh, all those healthy things I was going to do, we’re gonna put them on hold because we’re all gonna die of COVID and the world is ending, and I might as well make another martini and have another brownie or whatever is on your mind.

 

(00:07:56):

Well, what we found in our household was that my sweetheart joined me in this initial moment, and then we were drinking a lot more. And, um, one night, I mean, it wasn’t anything special. There was, there wasn’t a car wreck, you know, nobody got into a fight or anything, but he, we had a picnic with some friends, you know, we were all eating outside. We ate outside, we drank. I remember being worried about him driving. And I actually remember saying, this is scary, and I don’t even think you’re gonna remember this tomorrow. And, and yet he wouldn’t let me drive, you know, so it was like, it was, it was a tense moment.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:08:45):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:08:45):

again, I don’t mean to make this into the biggest alcoholic shockeroo. It was, it was very tiny and mild by the kind of things you read in the, but we went home. He, I said, I know you’re gonna just fall into a dead sleep. And he did. And in the morning he was really shook up.

 

Susie Bright (00:09:06):

He didn’t remember saying, me saying, you are not gonna remember this. This is, you know, something is, this is, you’re not yourself. This isn’t right. This isn’t just being, having a buzz on. Um, he didn’t remember any of that. You know, it was, it was upsetting. And I, I mean, you, when you’re in a, any kind of marriage and you know somebody really well, and like any family member that you live with, sometimes you’re always, you know, you think I know every, what are they gonna say before they open their mouth? There’s no surprises left <laugh>, we’ve grown up together.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:09:46):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:09:46):

But he surprised me. He said, I’m not drinking. And I’m like, well, good. I mean, you’re so sick, so hungover. I’ll draw the shades, you know, speak in a soft voice, you know. But

 

Suzie Sherman (00:10:01):

You were thinking, He was talking about today, like, today I don’t need even any hair of the dog. I’m just gonna not drink. It’s sort of like you didn’t really have a sense that he was talking longer term.

 

Susie Bright (00:10:13):

I believed he meant it.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:10:15):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:10:16):

But I felt like this is just a cry of anguish and, you know, self-loathing. I feel so bad talking about him like this. I have done terrible things. I should just interject here. I’m not some saint, but this is a story about a moment in pandemic <laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:10:33):

Hopefully we have Jon’s buy-in about talking about this.

 

Susie Bright (00:10:36):

Yeah. Jon’s like, let me tell you about Susie’s

 

Suzie Sherman (00:10:39):

uhhuh

 

Susie Bright (00:10:40):

dark moments, you know, but this particular dark moment, he said that. And I’m like, well, we just are gonna get you better, and I bet by the end of the day you’ll be feeling a lot better. And then to my amazement, he has carefully and conscientiously not had a drop ever since.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:10:59):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Susie Bright (00:11:00):

uh, he doesn’t, you know, he’s not careless about picking up other glasses. He’s very, you know, aware that sometimes, oh, you know, you don’t know whether that’s a glass of water or somebody added vodka or, you know, he’s very careful. And we made, um, a united effort to make our social life and our beverage life really pleasant and enjoyable for him and everyone else who doesn’t drink because he’s not the only one I would say my friends in, in really, the pandemic had such a difference.

 

(00:11:37):

There were people who always drank, and I would say, and they haven’t stopped, and probably a little bit more, there were people who had a health crisis and started drinking less. And I don’t think anybody was untouched by it. For myself, when he stopped drinking as much, I did less too. You know, you, you don’t have this partner, “Ha ha ha, let’s have another” kind of a atmosphere going on. Um, I became more self-conscious of my habits. Like, am am I enjoy, you know, that whole mindfulness thing. Am I enjoying this? Why am I doing this? Um, am I already pleasantly inebriated and I just need a glass of water?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:12:22):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Susie Bright (00:12:22):

you know, half the time you’re like, oh, I just am dehydrated or I’m hungry, or, you know, whatever else might occur to you. But it did open up our conversations about our family histories and what it’s like to be haunted sometimes in my family, and I think I talked to you about this before, my maternal side were, uh, Irish immigrants came over in the 19th century, and they faced what nowadays seems like incomprehensible prejudice and bigotry.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:12:59):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:13:00):

as if they were the despised vermin, you know, that were always hearing about from right wing politicians. They were despised, they were unemployable. And one of the most common tropes was an Irishman is a drunk, a drunk who abandons his family. They’re all just wasted, hopeless alcoholics, lower than low. And it really stung. I mean, as the family, um, my mother’s generation, she was the first to go to college, you know, surmounting, unbelievable poverty. The war, world War II allowed, they were all young adults in the forties, and they moved to California, which was hiring the Irish to do things and allowing them a new life. They didn’t have to be imprisoned in the ghettos that they’d lived in, in back east and in the Midwest. It was a chance to be around people who would give you a chance.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:14:00):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:14:01):

And I noticed how some of my relatives took the opportunity to really distance themselves.

 

(00:14:09):

I mean, I never knew my mother to go to a bar. She would have, you know, a very polite little glass of wine at some social occasion. But it just was anathema to her. She didn’t speak to her brother or her father my entire life. I was never introduced to them because she said they had destroyed

 

Suzie Sherman (00:14:33):

Mm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:14:34):

and abandoned the family because of drink. And they were, you know, a shame, you know, like really a shame to the family. So you have that. But on the other hand, like my dad’s side of the family, it’s not that everybody was abstaining. They, they weren’t religious, but somehow if you were middle class or you, you know, you were a WASP, um, they were kind of on the farmer, um, butchers, you know, running little stores in town. If you were an alcoholic, it was hidden. And nobody said, oh my god, he’s a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

 

(00:15:12):

What a wasted alcoholic. Like, there was no, there was no stereotype. And, um, I would say the same thing about my partner. He comes from a family where nobody would, you know, every group that has been despised and treated as lesser than because of the color of the skin, their religion, you know, whatever have always been portrayed as being these ugly addicts, you know? Uh, and, and the people who have more property and wealth and title and so on, they might have all kinds of bad habits and secrets and addictions, but they’re never, the, the brush is never tarred against them.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:15:56):

Right. They don’t, they’re not perceived as dangerous elements to society, even though they often do more damage because they have more power.

 

Susie Bright (00:16:04):

Yes, Exactly. Yeah. You know, and so, um, there’s this sense that it’s an exception with them. Whereas once, I mean, I think part of the community of 12 step programs or anybody who’s ever been in an alcohol rehab or families who go for family support, um, they get to talk a lot about how there’s no respect of class or background when it comes to getting too far out there with drinking and seeing it ruin your life and ruin your health. Uh, um, I think one thing I talked about with you before was I went to, uh, an Al-Anon meeting

 

Suzie Sherman (00:16:45):

Mm-Hmm.

 

Susie Bright (00:16:45):

Which as you know, is, uh, supposed to be for families or partners of people who are, um, way out there <laugh> low functioning with their drinking. Um, that was my first experience with a therapeutical environment.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:16:59):

Mm.

 

Susie Bright (00:17:00):

You know, where people talk about their problems and you get support and there’s a fellowship and, and you’re encouraged to think about your family of origin story and how that, you know, if you’re in Al-Anon, you get a lot of information about a phrase called codependency.

 

(00:17:19):

Are you enabling your beloveds bad habits? Are you covering up for them? Are you part of the problem even though you’re not the one who’s drinking much or drinking at all? I think I first went to such things, probably my early twenties.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:17:37):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:17:37):

Um, and I think it was all, it was really all the, the rage in San Francisco at the time, and I didn’t have an alcoholic partner, but my best friend Kimmy said, no, no, you have to come. You’ll see there, you know, there’s lessons to be learned here. You’ll start thinking about your family in different ways and your history. And, um, did

 

Suzie Sherman (00:18:00):

You

Susie Bright (00:18:01):

Go ahead,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:18:02):

Was what provoked you, your family history and trying to make sense of it initially? Or was it Kimmy being involved and saying, come, come on. Like, this is a, this is a valuable fellowship to be a part of, and you’ll, you know, you’ll make these realizations or whatever. Like, did you have a conscious process before being dragged along?

 

Susie Bright (00:18:24):

It was peer pressure,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:18:26):

uhhuh <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:18:26):

There was this moment in the gay community in the very early eighties when everyone, I mean AIDS, right? And it was like the end of the party, and there was this crash, and everyone was, felt like, you know, you had been up all night tooting cocaine and 

drinking and, you know, singing the song and doing the line dance. And all of a sudden it was just like crunch. And if you had been in San Francisco at that time and you were, um, lesbian or gay man, everybody started going to AA meetings. And you would hear your friends saying, no, no, don’t worry about the god part. They’re not homophobic. I I go to a meeting here and a meeting there, and it’s full of queers.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:19:12):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:19:12):

And they say that in a, in a like “full of people like us.” And it’s super cool. And you know, the god is just your higher power. You’ll understand once you’re there. So I would say I went out of peer pressure and like, oh, it’s free. And I mean, I’m a psychologically, um, introspective person. I, as you can see, I’m on this show with you, right? I like, I like thinking about, uh, the human, the human condition.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:19:40):

The human condition. Absolutely. Absolutely.

 

Susie Bright (00:19:42):

So I went, and then you hear people tell stories of like whatever situation they’re in at the moment. And of course I started thinking, wow, actually I did have a lover like that. Or, this reminds me of my mother’s pain and the haunting of this curse of the drinking class thing that happened in my family. And the strangeness of not knowing whether you will be affected and is it genetic? And like, don’t you wish you could know when you, you know, like, a baby’s born and they say, by the way, you know, like, their tickets’ punched for this or that, but you don’t, you don’t know.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:20:26):

Right. Am I destined to have a kind of a growing out of control relationship with alcohol because of this history, or not?

 

Susie Bright (00:20:34):

Right, right.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:20:35):

Right.

 

Susie Bright (00:20:36):

It’s so mysterious. And then as somebody who has lived in other countries, you really are startled by the fact that America has taken such a puritanical and Calvinist attitude towards drinking and vice that the extremities are just seem more absurd and the sense of shame and like that, that there’s no such thing as moderation. There’s no such thing as this just being another part of life. I remember I lived in very rural France where, you know, there’d be pubs or, you know, wine and cheese and nuts and people would gather at the end of the day, and of course you brought your children, mothers, nursing their babies. Um, in fact, it was a way for everybody to kind of keep their eyes on the kids <laugh>, like, and at the same time, relax at the end of the day.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:21:33):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:21:34):

And I remember coming home from that with my baby and having somebody turn me away from, um, must have been, it was this lounge on Mission.

 

(00:21:44):

And I went in with some friends and they said, you can’t bring the baby in here. Like, I was some sort of mad woman. And I’m like, well, I’m not getting her a drink.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:21:53):

Right.

 

Susie Bright (00:21:54):

She’s a baby <laugh>. And I guess then they’re like, well, I suppose you think you are going to have a drink and, uh, you know, that’s even worse. You know, like, what was worse?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:22:02):

Yeah. Right.

 

Susie Bright (00:22:02):

And I’m like, wow. I’ve really been, uh, out of the country for a while where drinking was easily part of any eating or social event. And of course there were the, the village drunks that everybody knew, but they were considered outside of a atmosphere that was just more of a gastronomic embrace of everything. Maybe. That sounds so French.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:22:28):

Absolutely. Well, there’s like social structures that support, uh, the normalization of

 

Susie Bright (00:22:34):

I lived in Central America.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:22:36):

Yeah.

 

Susie Bright (00:22:36):

The same thing was, was there too, just a different vibe.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:22:42):

It speaks to like how disembodied Americans are or how much we compartmentalize things and don’t integrate that experience. And so there’s a way in which the experience is, there’s a shame around it, and there’s an isolation around it. And of course, that leads to the worst relationships with alcohol, with drugs because

 

Susie Bright (00:23:03):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:23:03):

it’s actually being embraced as part of the social fabric is the way to have a, a healthier relationship with it. Even, especially around like ritual, like, like ritual use of, of wine is something that

 

Susie Bright (00:23:17):

Right.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:23:17):

You know, wasn’t even prohibited during Prohibition!

 

Susie Bright (00:23:20):

<laugh>,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:23:20):

um, which

 

Susie Bright (00:23:21):

Right, I know

 

(00:23:22):

which is

 

Suzie Sherman (00:23:23):

Which. There’s, there’s a, there’s a basis to that of people actually having a healthy relationship with booze because it’s brought out at certain occasions that are appropriate. And if you take away, if you shame people and take away social structures, it only makes people’s relationship with booze worse.

 

Susie Bright (00:23:40):

Yeah. No, that’s, people have made the same case for, um, how ritual use of tobacco in the original Americas, you know, was just capitalism came along and made it into this dreadful addiction. And, you know, why did everything have to go so far? And people talk about this all the time. And even though my investigation on the healthcare and rehab side of this started with AA consciousness, I actually would not probably be in that setting now as I got more experience with all kinds of things, including I would say public health education in the wake of AIDS and talking about safe sex. I became one of those people on the social work and educator front who were saying, harm reduction. Harm reduction. If we insist you’re perfect and you know, either celibate or condoms every time, or you never have a drink and you never smoke a joint, uh, our chances of success are like zero.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:24:48):

Precisely.

 

Susie Bright (00:24:49):

That’s why it’s so weird that my lover quit drinking <laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:24:53):

It’s a great way to come back around to it.

 

Susie Bright (00:24:55):

I said, you are upsetting the harm reduction model

 

(Both) (00:24:58):

<laugh>

 

Susie Bright (00:24:58):

Like, because most people, you have a lot more success if you just say, you know, I’m gonna try and every day is another chance. And by being mindful and having support and not being lonely and, you know, having other things going on in my life, I don’t have to fall apart and lose my status as a good person because I have a bad day or because I indulge something that’s hard on me and hard on my body.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:25:30):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:25:30):

So, yeah, I kind of, um, I mean, I’ve read so much about these things now, you know, ’cause everyone’s like trying to find the thing that works, you know? And, you know, what is the statistics? Um, I just keep thinking about how my life changes. And right now it’s an aging question. I’m 65, you know, my goodness. And I think one of the biggest laughs I had at the movies was that film Little Miss Sunshine, where this hilarious family is going to a, a crazy child beauty contest. And Alan Arkin is the grandfather and they’re all on a car stuffed into a car, and he admonishes, uh, one of the younger kids, you know, don’t do drugs. And everyone looks at him because they know that grandpa is a user <laugh>

 

(Clip from Little Miss Sunshine) (00:25:31):

 

[The family is in a van, on the road. Richard drives, Sheryl sits shotgun. Edwin, Richard’s father, and teenager Dwayne, are in the way back. Olive, age 7, is in the middle, wearing headphones.]

 

Edwin (Alan Arkin) (00:26:21):

You’re as bad as those fuckers at Sunset Manor.

 

[Richard (Greg Kinnear) bangs on the car horn, a short, sharp HONK]

 

Frank (Steve Carell) (00:26:25):

What happened at Sunset Manor?

 

Sheryl (Toni Collette) (00:26:27):

Frank, don’t encourage him.

 

Edwin (Alan Arkin) (00:26:28):

[Yelling] What happened? I’ll tell you what happened. I paid my money. They took my money. I should be able to do what the fuck I want.

 

Sheryl (Toni Collette) (00:26:34):

[In a hushed tone] He started snorting heroin.

 

Frank (Steve Carell) (00:26:36):

You started snorting heroin?

 

Edwin (Alan Arkin) (00:26:37):

I’m old.

 

Frank (Steve Carell) (00:26:38):

Well, that stuff will kill you.

 

Edwin (Alan Arkin) (00:26:40):

What am I an idiot?

[turns to Dwayne (Paul Dano)]

And don’t you start taking that shit when you’re young. You’re crazy to do that stuff.

[Dwayne nods.]

 

Frank (Steve Carell) (00:26:45):

What about you?

 

Edwin (Alan Arkin) (00:26:46):

What about me? I’m old. When you get old, you’re crazy not to do it.

 

Sheryl (Toni Collette) (00:26:49):

We’ve tried. Believe me, the intervention was a fiasco. It was worse than a 2-year-old.

 

Richard (Greg Kinnear) (00:26:53):

Can we please talk about something else?

 

Susie Bright (00:26:56):

I wish I could quote it exactly. But he says something like, “I have to do drugs. I’m old when you get to be my age, you’d better start doing drugs or you’re never gonna make it.” Something. But he was acknowledging that, um, nobody tells you this, but there’s a certain age, different for everyone, where you are slightly in pain all of the time and often dealing with tremendous pain that you are trying to ignore, circumvent, treat, uh, escape from. And I have definitely hit that. I just, um, oh, I, I wasn’t going to talk to you about this, but I just went to a doctor’s appointment yesterday and I said, look, we need to go to next stage arthritis bootcamp, because I can’t just keep taking aspirin, man. It’s, it’s, I’m beyond the aspirin and, uh, be a good sports stage. And I am shocked at these odd little parts of your body, you know, that you never think about.

 

(00:28:01):

Like, why would this knuckle suddenly feel like Jesus Christ himself is having a nail <laugh> pounded in

 

Suzie Sherman (00:28:10):

fuck

 

Susie Bright (00:28:11):

to your nerve? I mean, it’s just,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:28:13):

I’m so sorry.

 

Susie Bright (00:28:14):

You’re so surprised

 

Suzie Sherman (00:28:15):

that that’s happening.

 

Susie Bright (00:28:16):

No, it’s okay. It’s okay.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:28:17):

It’s real.

 

Susie Bright (00:28:17):

I’m trying to make light of it.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:28:19):

Yeah.

 

Susie Bright (00:28:19):

But one of the things that people do, because no one has the perfect pill, and there’s so many ailments of and disabilities people have that don’t have a ready–readily understood rehab or cure, and you turn more often to pain relief. And so we hear people saying, well, I just wanna have a drink because you know, what else is supposed to get me through this? Or, or perhaps their choices of is some pot or the debate about the opioid epidemic. You have to say “epidemic” now back where, as opposed to opioids used to be thought of as like, “thank god Martha had morphine when her health declined.”

 

(00:29:06):

Right? We used to think of it as life-saving pain relief. And now it’s this thing where people who have surgeries and um, complex pain syndromes are treated like, “Really, really? You want some oxy, huh? Well, you know, how about an Advil and we’re putting on a surveillance camera in your own,” you know, there’s just, again, it’s the American thing. Yeah. We went from over-prescribing and handing it out like candy and getting people hooked. And the whole Sackler family empire disgrace. You either have that or you have people with lung cancer who are being told that there’s no morphine at the pharmacy and they’re just gonna have to grin and bear it. And I, I’m like, what is the matter with us? I’m being so grim. Do you wanna hear about my latest, favorite cocktail? I could really… <laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:30:00):

I absolutely do. But let me hold this contradiction with you for a little bit. ’cause I think it’s

 

Susie Bright (00:30:06):

<laughs> okay.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:30:06):

It’s important, right? In our own personal journeys around reconciling our relationship with alcohol and substances as well.

 

Susie Bright (00:30:15):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:30:15):

it’s like, and also it’s a systemic issue. And what you’ve been pointing to here is on the one hand, this like regressive, um, shame-based American flavor of trying to control drugs, control certain people’s bodies, um, police,

 

Susie Bright (00:30:36):

right.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:30:37):

Certain people’s use of, of drugs on the one hand.

 

Susie Bright (00:30:40):

Exactly.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:30:41):

And also actually grappling with the need for pain relief and also the need for, um, social lubrication and a healthy relationship with, with substances. And of course, there’s lots of different uses we’re talking about, whether it’s recreational or whether it’s medicinal. And, and there’s all this gray area in between that we actually have to reconcile and in our relationships with substances and booze in our own bodies as people who are aging. And, you know, I’m, I am

 

Susie Bright (00:31:12):

Right.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:31:12):

I’m, um, not as distinguished as you. I’m in my early

 

Susie Bright (00:31:16):

Oh, thank you. <laughs>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:31:17):

I’m my early fifties. Um, but certainly the changes in my body have had a big impact on my own decisions around using booze. Um, and I’ll just, I’ll disclose, and I haven’t disclosed this on the podcast before; we talked about it in our initial meeting, but, um, I actually haven’t told my podcast audience this yet, that actually I’ve been sober for two years. I don’t usually use the term “sober,” I don’t really identify with it all that much. But, um, you know, whiskey was my big thing for many years. Probably a, um, a dozen years. And of course before that, all the recreational use and gin and martinis and gin tonics and stuff. But when I kind of

 

Susie Bright (00:32:03):

mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

(00:32:03):

made the switch over to whiskey about, I don’t know, 15 years ago or so, it really kind of turned a switch for me and my relationship with whiskey. Um, it just did not work for me anymore. Did not feel right anymore. So it’s been a couple of years since I’ve been drinking. Um,

 

(00:32:19):

I wanna ask you something.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:32:20):

Yeah.

 

Susie Bright (00:32:21):

You know how you said, I don’t usually use the word “sober,”

 

Suzie Sherman (00:32:26):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:32:26):

uh, “because I don’t identify with it.”

 

Suzie Sherman (00:32:27):

Mm.

 

Susie Bright (00:32:28):

I know what you mean. Because it has these contemporary social cues that are more than just the definition of “without alcohol,” right? You know? And I want I to ask you

 

Suzie Sherman (00:32:40):

Mm mm-Hmm, <affirmative>,

 

Susie Bright (00:32:40):

what does the word “sober” imply that you don’t appreciate or don’t relate to beyond its technical definition?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:32:49):

That’s a great question. Thank you. Um, you, that’s, yeah. It is a, it’s a really good question. Thinking of all kinds of things that, like I formerly was identified with, and I’m grappling with not identifying with, like, you know, I love the aesthetic and the sumptuousness of booze culture, and I know you do too.

 

Susie Bright (00:33:11):

Yeah.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:33:11):

I’ve been following your substack and we’ll definitely get into this. Like, what is your, what’s, what’s your fave latest cocktail?

 

Susie Bright (00:33:18):

<laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:33:18):

Um, but like, there’s something aesthetically that I identify with there. There’s, I love bar culture still. I’ve, I, you know, I’m, I’m a, I’m an urban queer. I like hanging out in bars with friends

 

Susie Bright (00:33:32):

Mm-hm <affirmative>)

 

Suzie Sherman (00:33:32):

…who are drinking. So far for me, it hasn’t been a slippery slope. I’ve been able to just make, continue to make the decision to not drink, because that’s what’s working.

 

Susie Bright (00:33:40):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:33:40):

for me right now. Um, but you know, a lot of folks who, um, really need to, I, you know, I can’t speak for people who I need to identify with word “sober.” So it’s sort of hard for me to define what my relationship with that is, you know,

 

Susie Bright (00:33:58):

Mm-hm <affirmative>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:33:58):

because I don’t wanna make assumptions or judgments about people who, for whom it’s important to identify as sober. Right. I also sort of white knuckled it. I didn’t do the AA route. I’m definitely more of a harm reduction person at heart. But I’ve been surprised at the fact that actually I’m zero, um, zero intoxicating doses of alcohol

 

Susie Bright (00:34:21):

<laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:34:22):

I will

 

Susie Bright (00:34:23):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:34:24):

you know, throw some sherry into something that I’m cooking, and I will have a dash of bitters in some club soda if I’m hanging out with folks.

 

Susie Bright (00:34:32):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:34:32):

just to kind of, you know, have a lowball glass in my hand and feel

 

Susie Bright (00:34:36):

Right

 

Suzie Sherman (00:34:37):

To feel hot and butch holding that kind of, you know,

 

Susie Bright (00:34:41):

<laugh>. You are,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:34:42):

<laugh>

 

Susie Bright (00:34:42):

I can see it right now. I think, you know, one thing I love about, um, New Orleans, the city of New Orleans, I mean, they are the home of the cocktail and of a lot of drinking culture as we know it. Um, but there’s also tons of people in recovery and cutting down and sober. And they are, every, every bar knows what soda and bitters is.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:08):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Susie Bright (00:35:09):

you never have to explain. And they have several kinds of bitters.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:14):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:35:14):

And then you get this adult taste, and it’s not Kool-Aid because it’s, it’s bitter!

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:21):

 I’m so glad…

 

Susie Bright (00:35:22):

It’s bitter and it’s herbaceous. And you can sit there feeling like, you know, just totally part of it all. And, um, yeah. I just love that they know that, and or they understand. They’re like, oh, they’re this, they think that you’re a hard drinker and this is just your

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:40):

Winding down,

 

Susie Bright (00:35:40):

your warm up

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:41):

or warming up wind,

 

Susie Bright (00:35:42):

winding down, warming up, <laugh>. Right. Whatever

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:45):

I have. I have to, um, credit my friend Heather Robinson for this. She’s an artist in San Francisco. I’m sure we all have

 

Susie Bright (00:35:53):

Right.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:53):

lots of mutual friends, but, um, Heather calls this a Surly Temple.

 

Susie Bright (00:35:57):

Surly Temple. Okay. I’m gonna,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:35:59):

A bitters and soda

 

Susie Bright (00:36:00):

I’m gonna start using that too.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:36:01):

A Surly Temple

 

Susie Bright (00:36:03):

<laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:36:03):

it’s a beautiful term for it.

 

Susie Bright (00:36:05):

Yeah. No, I, I I’m a I’m adding it to the book.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:36:09):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:36:10):

Well, that appreciation of gastronomical sumptuousness and luxury and a sense of ritual. I think when you have some entree to that whole world of dining and hospitality and cooking, I think it does make it feel like you haven’t left the party.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:36:33):

That’s right.

 

Susie Bright (00:36:34):

Because it’s just so much, there’s so many little pieces that are so fun. I mean, I’m, it’s really on my mind right now because Thanksgiving is coming up and I’m thinking about the beverages I’m going to make for drinkers and not drinkers, but I’m also thinking about the candles and the tablecloth and the exact nuts I want in which tray. And I mean, I just, I love that kind of thing. And relaxing with my friends and having them be, just feel really spoiled and special. It’s just great. I, I, it’s just one of my favorite things to do. And to know that you have a friend who isn’t feeling on the margins of it all because there’s nothing for them to enjoy. I mean, that would just be a disgrace. You know, Martha Stewart would just cut me off, you know?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:37:25):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Suzie Bright (00:37:26):

I mean, it would be the end <laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:37:27):

<laugh>. You don’t wanna displease the Domme Martha Stewart

 

Susie Bright (00:37:34):

<laugh>. You know, everyone’s talking today about how her best friend Snoop Dogg has announced he’s quit smoking weed. And, but people aren’t understanding. He’s transferring to edibles only.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:37:48):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:37:49):

And, uh, for any of you who are confused, it’s, he’s, again, harm reduction, right?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:37:53):

That’s right.

 

Susie Bright (00:37:53):

He’s trying to save his lungs and his voice. So important for a singer <laugh> for a rapper.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:38:00):

That’s a great decision, it sounds like, for him.

 

Susie Bright (00:38:03):

Yeah.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:38:03):

Yeah. So tell me, tell me, Susie, what is like, what is your cocktail du jour like, what are you really into right now? I have a little sense again, ’cause I’ve been reading your substack, so I’ve been keeping up with some of the cocktails that you’ve been talking about,

 

Susie Bright (00:38:18):

<laugh>. Well, I have some new, I have some, you know, breaking news for you here.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:38:22):

Amazing.

 

Susie Bright (00:38:22):

But I haven’t, uh, put in into print yet. But there is a fantastic story in the Wall Street Journal this week, which if you don’t happen to know, don’t read the op-eds, their arts and culture coverage is fantastic. I love it.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:38:41):

Surprising.

 

Susie Bright (00:38:42):

And they haven’t that Yeah, I was surprised too. And now I’m hooked. They have a long interview with book author and historian, Toni Tipton-Martin, T-O-N-I, and then Tipton-Martin, who is a African American food historian. She’s done books in the past. She did one that I actually produced in audio called The Jemima Code. I learned so much from that. And now she has a book about drinking and the history, which is really deep, of Black mixology and bartenders and secret little books that, you know, got passed around Black people working in hospitality.

 

(00:39:26):

And she just goes deep into it. And one of the things she explains is that on the surface, it’s like, oh, she’s a talented culinary writer. You know, of course she’s doing a beverage book, but it’s considered risque to say, yes, I’m Black and we’re gonna do a whole book about drinking because our community has been treated poorly and treated like, “oh, you people, drinking!” just like the Irish history I was talking about.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:39:57):

Absolutely.

 

Susie Bright (00:39:58):

Like, there shouldn’t be any, nobody should do a book about African American drink history. That that’s a scandal. You know, what will the church say? What will dignified wholesome people say? We should be encouraging our people not to drink. I mean, all this baggage

 

Suzie Sherman (00:40:13):

And what will white people say? Oh, yeah. See, I told you So Black folks

 

Susie Bright (00:40:18):

Right?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:40:18):

Are irresponsible in this way and dangerous in this way. Right. This, this kind of policing of Black folks and bodies.

 

Susie Bright (00:40:26):

Exactly. Yeah. Whereas Martha Stewart wants to do a book about a cocktail. Nobody goes, “oh, Martha, you’re really making Polish Americans look bad.” <laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:40:34):

<laugh>

 

Susie Bright (00:40:34):

They don’t say that.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:40:35):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That’s right.

 

Susie Bright (00:40:35):

No one even knows things of her, her background. So she does this book, and a lot of it, of course focuses on Southern traditions. One of the bartenders, now I’m gonna feel dumb ’cause I, maybe we can do a little, uh, extra description later on your podcast where I can give you some links. But one of the men who wrote a bar manual was the lead bartender of the Pendennis Club, a club in Louisville, Kentucky that banned Black customers until the sixties when they allowed Muhammad Ali

 

Suzie Sherman (00:41:14):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:41:14):

to come make a visit. The pride of Louisville. And this very elderly, at that point, bartender made him one of his special, one of a kind drinks, because, of course, their staff was Black.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:41:27):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:41:27):

But the membership was white.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:41:29):

Of course. Yeah.

 

Susie Bright (00:41:30):

And this is his bar book. I’m gonna order a facsimile copy. I can’t wait to see it. There’s a lot of discussion in these books. And she describes it in her interview with the Wall Street Journal. She says, I’m very interested in how they discuss red wine as claret. And she says, I have created a claret punch a Claret Cup, as we call it. That’s just a, a beverage word, but it’s a punch that’s going to be red and beautiful for the holidays. And I’m gonna follow it to the letter. So I’m gonna make Toni Tipton’s Claret Cup. And then of course there’s my famous eggnog, which has actually gone viral. And I make it virgin. And then you, you know, there’s the booze on the side. By the way, my recommendation for the booze is a little rum and a little brandy I think tastes better than any one thing all by itself.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:42:26):

Thank you for the tip.

 

Susie Bright (00:42:27):

Yeah. Homemade eggnog with, I mean, you begin separating 12 eggs. That’s how it begins. It’s complex. You have to start it the day before. It’s a big deal. And then I think I’m going to, I’ve been collecting different kinds of mulling spices like star anis and cinnamon course, and anise seeds. And I’m going to make, um, some apple punch with apples I picked this year from our, we have a very fruitful tree in the yard. And I could mull some wine too. I mean, once you have your collection of mulling spices, you can go a lot of directions <laugh>. Now, none of these are cocktails. I’m thinking about punches where you serve a lot of people and you have to do a lot of math with the alcohol. People do not like a punch that kills you with one sip.

 

(00:43:20):

Right. They want to be able to laugh and just drink freely all evening without getting too wasted. So you

 

Suzie Sherman (00:43:26):

Maintain

 

Susie Bright (00:43:26):

Yeah. You have to have a really nice taste and just low alcohol, um, percentage. So yeah, it, you need to hit it just right. The heavier drinkers can go get the bottle, but the punch has gotta have a really nice balance. As far as an individual cocktail, though, my recent discovery is because grapefruits are in season, and most people know about the orange juice relationship to cocktails because everyone knows what a screwdriver is, or a monkey gland and many others that are famous, but not a lot of people are in tune with how grapefruit juice. It’s the umami of citrus. Okay. This is my take. The takeaway for the whole program.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:44:16):

Hah!

 

Susie Bright (00:44:16):

Grapefruit is the umami of citrus. It doesn’t matter whether you think you like grapefruit juice, irrelevant. It just melds and brings out other flavors that you don’t expect in the same way that, I don’t care whether you like mushrooms, everyone’s gonna like an umami flavor, even though it comes from a mushroom base.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:44:35):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:44:36):

So I am making a drink. I feel like giving it a new title, ’cause I don’t relate to the title, but its historic title is the Palm Beach Special. It’s two and a half ounces gin, three quarters grapefruit juice, one half red vermouth—sweet vermouth. Very simple. Three things that are much different together than any of them are.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:45:01):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:45:02):

separately. And it’s crisp. It’s just very nice. And because you’re using just a tiny bit of grapefruit juice, you only need one or two grapefruits. Squeeze ’em, put ’em in a jam..the juice in a jam jar. And you have plenty.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:45:16):

It’s almost like a Negroni in a way where, but you’re using grapefruit juice instead of Campari. So you get that bitter and sweet, but more complex…something from fresh grapefruit juice.

 

Susie Bright (00:45:31):

Well, you are the one who brought it up.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:45:33):

Mm.

 

Susie Bright (00:45:33):

So I’m gonna give you a Campari pushback. <laugh>,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:45:36):

Please!

 

Susie Bright (00:45:37):

No, I, i, I go in and out of, of different periods. I mean, when, uh, someone first introduced a Negroni to me, I was like, this is the ideal drink! It’s equal parts. Oh my God, let’s have one every day. You know, like I was, I was so excited about it. But right now I’m in a Campari went too far and it needs to like, take a seat

 

Suzie Sherman (00:46:00):

It needs to settle down. <laugh>

 

Susie Bright (00:46:01):

needs to settle down. The marketing people need to shut up. They’ve overdone it. There’s a Campari backlash going on, and grapefruit, oh, it’s just so divine. And you know, another thing that, um, is happening right now that has people looking at citrus and things they can do from their own garden is some of the exotic liquors that you could buy a bottle and enjoy a little like Chartreuse or an amaro. They have become, they’re part of a supply chain meltdown.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:46:35):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:46:36):

And the price has gone through the roof. I was going to buy a bottle of Chartreuse, which would normally last me for two years because I just, you know, a teaspoon here,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:46:45):

Sure.

 

Susie Bright (00:46:45):

A teaspoon there. And I went in the other day and they’re like, we’ve had to put it behind the counter because it’s $120 <laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:46:53):

Holy crap.

 

Susie Bright (00:46:54):

What is going on?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:46:56):

Uhhuh <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:46:57):

I think I spent 20 last time I bought a bottle of this stuff. It was not this rarity. Benedictine, all these, I guess there’s all these monks who are dying out and they haven’t retrained enough new people. ’cause like, frankly, who wants to be a monk anymore? There’s not a lot of people racing off to live in a monastery and scrub the floors and make the special potion.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:47:23):

Right.

 

Susie Bright (00:47:24):

Anyway, um, some kind of disaster is happening. This has happened in the perfume business too. But it means that you look in your garden and you’re like, Hey, um, I’m in California. The mint is growing wild. We have some fruit growing in the neighborhood. We’re so lucky. You know, I mean, just walk down the street, you could get an oranges off of somebody’s tree. ’cause they’re not, they don’t even pick them all. We, we have this abundance. I’m moving into my grapefruit phrase and I will not be, I will not be deterred.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:47:59):

I You heard it here first folks.

 

Susie Bright (00:48:02):

<laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:48:03):

Grapefruit is the umami of the cocktail world.

 

Susie Bright (00:48:07):

Yeah. Even if, if I don’t, uh, if I quit booze for the holidays, I’m not quitting grapefruit. So don’t even try <laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:48:16):

Oh yeah. Club soda and a hit of grapefruit juice.

 

Susie Bright (00:48:19):

Oh, nice.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:48:20):

We didn’t really talk as much as I wanted to about sort of that asymmetrical dynamic between you and Jon in terms of like his, he’s at zero alcohol. You are at, um, ritual, sumptuous, healthy consumption of alcohol. Maybe questioning your relationship with alcohol a little bit, but definitely not totally abstaining.

 

Susie Bright (00:48:43):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:48:45):

And I wanted to talk a little more about sort of how, how that, that works between you and what that feels like.

 

Susie Bright (00:48:51):

One thing that happens, at least for me with my partner, quitting drinking is the selfish part of me was like, awesome. I never have to be scared or worried about him. You know, driving or, you know, being in a bad mood or, you know, any, any of the unpleasant parts of drinking too much. I always have a designated driver no matter where we go, I can be like, ha ha ha fill my glass. And I have someone who is cold sober driving me home. So part of me is like, this is working out great for me. <laugh> It also, it also made me more aware of, well, I don’t wanna, there’s no competition or keeping up with somebody to drink at home. So it’s a lot easier to be more mindful and restful about drinking at home.

 

(00:49:44):

The other side of it that is more, I don’t know what kind of phrases to give it, the guilty side? Uh, I admire him for doing this. I, I think to myself, it’s gonna extend his life. I’m sure his liver and kidneys are so happy. Mine could be too. I’ve made a lot of the Alan Arkin Little Miss Sunshine excuses. ’cause I thought to myself, well, I didn’t drink when I was young. I was so, I had such juvenile taste buds that I thought any alcohol tasted like Robitussin, I could not stand it. And I didn’t appreciate alcohol until I was in my fifties. So part of me is like, don’t I get to do whatever I want?

 

Suzie Sherman (00:50:31):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:50:31):

because I’m a late bloomer.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:50:32):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:50:33):

But any doctor would just say, oh, would you fucking wake up? You know, like, <laughs> he would just be like, no, Susie, that’s a really bad excuse. So I feel, um,

 

Suzie Sherman (00:50:44):

’cause god knows you didn’t do a lot of living in your time.

 

Susie Bright (00:50:48):

Yeah. And I, and I’d say the kind of things that if I was in, uh, an AA meeting, they would say, you’re making an excuse. It doesn’t matter that you started late. If I said to them, but I’ve never blacked out. I’ve never had a work problem. I’ve never lost a relationship because of my drinking. They’d be like, “Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Matter of time baby.” You know, like they, they would be like, “oh, really? Have you talked to your friends? Maybe some of them would say, you know, we don’t like it when you drink.” Oh my god, I’m not gonna, I don’t, ah, yeah. Just perish the thought, the sense of have I embarrassed myself or am I in denial? But I can do this to myself about everything. You know, there’s so many pieces of my life that I let go and should have attended to sooner or taken more seriously.

 

(00:51:40):

Maybe everybody’s like this. So the asymmetrical part that you mentioned, I feel really lucky that he took that step. I might take it someday myself, but I don’t want to now.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:51:55):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.

 

Susie Bright (00:51:56):

And my reasons are not noble. Um, you know, they range for, but it’s fun and it’s nice to just break the circuit of your mood and feel light or lively or in, in a social community of, of the fun of drinking. I mean, all the things that people enjoy about it, I enjoy. And this doesn’t stand up at the doctor’s office, but that butt hurt sense that I think all of us have of like, do I have to give up everything…

 

Suzie Sherman (00:52:33):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,

 

Susie Bright (00:52:34):

that’s nice. When the world is so horrible and humanity is hurdling towards oblivion, you know, the planet’s ending, but we still have plenty of time to have a, you know, a war or five or six.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:52:47):

Yeah.

 

Susie Bright (00:52:48):

I mean, just being so exasperated and, um, if this is one of my enjoyments, if I’m not in desperate trouble with it, why should I have to be held to task? But there could be a time where somebody says, well, do you still think that, you know, if I ever, I, I’m at an age where I’m always being asked to do blood labs to check how I’m doing. And if I ever got a result and they asked me about my drinking, I’d be really upset. And I’m sure that would provoke me in a way that few things

 

Suzie Sherman (00:53:27):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Susie Bright (00:53:27):

can, so…

 

Suzie Sherman (00:53:29):

it’s still a ritual in your life that you feel good about, you get pleasure from and you feel

Susie Bright (00:53:35):

 

Oh yeah.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:53:35):

And you’re attached to it

 

Susie Bright (00:53:37):

Yeah. I think of it as, um, I mean, you’ve heard me talk so gleefully about my recipe plans and my rituals and my sense of this will be fun and that will taste good and look at what I did. I really like that. But when I take on a tone of gravitas and I look at the list of things, uh, you know, exercise, stretching, would it kill you to moisturize, <laugh>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:54:08):

<laugh>

 

Susie Bright (00:54:09):

Then clearly up there would be don’t drink or don’t drink very often, or, you know, it could easily be part of that. And this, you really got me on the hot seat here. I feel like it’s a decision that is looming, but I don’t want to cross the Rubicon yet.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:54:33):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I wanna, I wanna be someone maybe in your life in an ancillary way or, or more,

 

Susie Bright (00:54:43):

<laughs>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:54:43):

um, who can hold that space with you around it. And maybe we can check in about it at some point with no pressure. You know, it’s sort of like, I, I really appreciate people I can talk to about those gray areas of drinking. Um, and even though right now, and for the last two years, it’s been continuing to say no has been a decision that makes sense to me. And of course, I don’t mean to be invoking Nancy Reagan <laugh> when I when I say that

 

Susie Bright (00:55:11):

<laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:55:11):

Um, but just simply being in a situation and making a decision. You know, like I, what’s my craving here? And being more mindful of what’s going on in my body and in my spirit, I guess pun intended on spirit, but it’s sort of like, what’s going on for me now?

 

(00:55:28):

Do I have a craving for grabbing a whiskey right now because I have an intolerable emotional feeling going on? Or is it because I wanna enhance my joy? And I think that that’s an a useful metric for me. Um, so far, my, my decision has continued to be no, which also boggles my mind. I never thought I would be a total abstention person,

 

Susie Bright (00:55:54):

Uh huh <affirmative>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:55:54):

but for right now, for me, that’s been the right decision. But I love talking to people about these nuances in the gray areas about it and the fact that it does enhance our lives and we do get something out of it. And we do, it does enhance our joy sometimes to drink and to be merry with our friends. And, um,

 

Susie Bright (00:56:12):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:56:13):

and I honor that, uh, in your life and your process. And I’m a person who’s open to talking to you about it. If you do wanna do more harm reduction on it.

 

Susie Bright (00:56:22):

<laugh>. Okay. I’m gonna put you in my HR—harm reduction—Rolodex.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:56:28):

That’s right.

 

Susie Bright (00:56:28):

You’ll, you’ll get to be there.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:56:29):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yep.

 

Susie Bright (00:56:30):

And, uh, <laugh>. Well, what do you think, should we talk about another topic with, for five more minutes? Or should we, I I’d love to do a thing where I just say goodbye and a few words of, of, um, thanking you for the show.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:56:46):

Oh, sure. I mean, you know, obviously I have to thank you for your time, Susie. I mean, you, you know, we have a, we have a good mutual friend. Um, he made this happen. He connected us, um, I think back a couple of months ago. The motivation was that you had, you fell on your bike and you had a really bad hand injury. And our friend Ryan…

 

Susie Bright (00:57:05):

Oh, that’s right.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:57:05):

was like, “Suzie, you gotta talk to Susie for your podcast. ’cause she’s bored out of her fucking mind right now. She has nothing to do because she’s just sitting with her hand injury.” And I’m like, Ugh. I cannot say no to the opportunity to meet Susie and, and, you know, and see if she’d be willing to be here. So even before you thank me for, um, this opportunity to talk. I have to thank you for, for taking the time. There was nothing in it for you as, as a, as a,

 

Susie Bright (00:57:32):

<laughs>

 

Suzie Sherman (00:57:32):

as a very prolific writer, editor, producer, um, public personality, Sexpert, um, former communist, revolutionary, um, <laugh>, you know,

 

Susie Bright (00:57:45):

Tish-tosh!

 

Suzie Sherman (00:57:45):

um, to, to be here and meet me. So thank you for your time.

 

Susie Bright (00:57:49):

Well, I was just gonna make mine really brief and say thank you so much for having me on this show. I love your voice. I love your, um, attentiveness and uh, journalistic chops and insights into things. It’s really fun.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:58:05):

Oh yay! Thank you.

 

Susie Bright (00:58:06):

And I, I can just imagine you, um, dig deep into anything you take an interest in. So thanks for having me with you for this episode.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:58:14):

You’re welcome. Thank you for your grace and

 

Susie Bright (00:58:18):

<laugh>.

 

Suzie Sherman (00:58:18):

Yeah, it’s lovely, just to connect with you.

(Theme Music) (00:58:19):

 

Suzie Sherman (00:58:21):

What a total pleasure to spend some time with Susie Bright. Thank you so much to Susie and Jon for letting us tell this story. Sign up for Susie Bright’s wonderful blog at susiebright.ink. If you’d like to delve into the podcast archives for more conversations on alcohol and drug use, harm reduction and sobriety, check out the episodes The Real Drug Was Checking Out and All At Once, All At Once. You can find the archive of all our episodes, detailed show notes and transcripts at nextthingpodcast.com or subscribe in your favorite podcast app.

 

(00:58:58):

A special thanks goes out to Ryan Masters for introducing Susie and me. Check out Ryan’s awesome band, Smoke Chaser. Their album Alazapul is now out on heroicdoserecords.com.

 

(00:59:11):

As always, a shout out to all my beautiful patrons for helping me create this podcast. A very hearty thanks to my Failure and Redemption level patrons, Heather, Kristina, Amy, Lisa, Kurt, Marck, Noah, Barry, Eidell, Bonita, and Jeannie. And to my Serendipity level patrons, Jodi, Brittany, Jen, Steve and Cyndi, Kristi, Dorian, and Micharelle. Join these cool kids by visiting us at patreon.com/nextthingpod.

 

(00:59:46):

If you can’t afford to become a patron just yet, won’t you tell your friends about And The Next Thing You Know? Shout out your favorite episode on social media with the hashtag #nextthingpod. You can also give us a good review at Apple Podcasts. Word of mouth is super meaningful. It helps people find the show, and I love seeing what you write about it. It makes me so happy that the podcast touches you. I appreciate you all so dang much.

 

(01:00:12):

We are And The Next Thing You Know. Our official HQ is at nextthingpodcast.com. The banana peel is by Max Ronnersjö. Music is by Jon Schwartz. Thanks everybody. We’ll talk soon. Unless I’m getting hammered on a grapefruit and soda.