Suzie Sherman
Hey everybody, it’s Suzie. I’m just gonna duck in here to say that this episode with Julia Serano was recorded a real long time ago. Well before COVID-19 changed everyone’s realities. I hope everyone’s doing well, staying safe, staying emotionally well, taking care of yourselves, doing what you need to feel healthy and well. We released a special episode about what’s going on for people adjusting to this new COVID-19 reality. The episode is in your feeds now; it was released last week. It’s called panic in a grocery store parking lot. So go ahead and check that out. And we hear from a lot of people in different communities just about what they’re doing, how they’re handling it, and I’m seeking submissions on a rolling basis. If you feel like letting us know how you’re feeling. What’s your emotional state? What are you doing to stay sane? How COVID-19 is affecting you and your family. Please record a voice message on your phone and email it to us at nextthingpod at gmail dot com. Okay, here’s my conversation with Notable Feminist Theorist Julia Serano.
Suzie Sherman
This is And The Next Thing You Know, it’s a podcast about how our lives go exactly not as we planned them. I’m Suzie Sherman. Some of you might be familiar with my guest today, Julia Serano. She’s the author of the nonfiction books Whipping Girl, Excluded and Outspoken. And she just published a work of fiction called 99 Erics: a Kat Cataclysm faux novel. But wait, there’s more! She’s a biologist. She’s an activist. She’s a musician. And as you will be reminded in this conversation, Julia Serano is a “Notable Feminist Theorist.” And I’m putting that in, as she might say, “scare quotes.” Julia sat down with me to talk about how her life changed in three surprising ways in the wake of her gender transition, but not because she transitioned. I’ll let her explain that as we get into the episode. It’s a blast talking with Julia, and this is a great compendium to a lot of other podcasts and speaking engagements she does, because it’s more about her personal life and less about gender theory. We do touch on theory, and in particular, the life experiences and work that have led her to form a holistic view of gender, considering the role of both social construction and biology. And we also talk about regressive attitudes about gender identity and expression, not just from ultra conservative forces, but from within progressive and queer community itself. We also may have spent a disproportionate amount of time in this conversation talking about the band Rush. And that leads me to a couple notes before we start. One is that we recorded this conversation last year, before beloved Rush drummer Neil Peart died. So, rest in peace, sir. And two, at the start of our conversation, when Julia and I are talking about her writing career, I juxtapose what I call “serious” writing, with her more creative writing, and I super do not want to give the impression that I think creative writing is not a serious endeavor. I was given to a false dichotomy there, and I want to sincerely apologize for that. So, without further ado, this is my conversation with “Notable Feminist Theorist” Julia Serano.
Suzie Sherman
You were thinking about a three-pronged strategy
Julia Serano
Haha.
Suzie Sherman
…to address this question of like, how did you become this person who you had no idea when you were a young person you would become?
Julia Serano
Yeah. So this is the way that, in my mind, I was, when I was thinking about all of the like, WTF How did this happen to me in my life, like how did this path like unfurl itself in front of me, and so I was kind of thinking about what were the two or three of those, and I came up with three of them. And they all came about because of my transition, but not because I transitioned, which sounds kind of weird. So I should start out, I guess for the people out there in Listener Land, by saying that I am a transgender author and activist, and so people who know who I am probably know that I’m transgender, but like, maybe, I’m sure a lot of people listening have, don’t know who I am. So that’s fine. And, um, so…
Suzie Sherman
I’m sure all 19 listeners that I will have…
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
…know exactly who you are. Haha.
Julia Serano
Okay, so but you know, but but three, four years from now after the podcast has blown up,
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
…and they’re just all these random people listening to it. If you didn’t know either of us personally. Yes,
Suzie Sherman
So four or five years ago, four or five years from now when I’m the Marc Maron of the queer Oakland scene.
Julia Serano
Yeah, there you go. And thinking about, like, you know, you know, “and the next thing you know, I became a woman,” right?
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
Like, for some people that would be like, Whoa, that’s a big thing. (And I mean) I guess it’s it was kind of a big thing. But it wasn’t something that surprised me because I’m trans. And that’s something that had been on my mind, like for most of my life, and I didn’t know I would ever necessarily transition, but I did. And that, in and of itself was not the surprise. But there were three things that happened in the wake of that that did surprise me that were kind of related to that. And so one is, I became a writer. The second one, relatedly, is I became a, I’m putting on “air quotes” now, haha. Or “scare quotes.” Um, a “Renowned Feminist Theorist,”
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
…or a noteworthy feminist.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh!
Julia Serano
And then the third one is, I went from being someone who was always kind of a pleaser, low-conflict type person, to being like really, really super duper in your face to people, and kind of a really sometimes impulsive, sometimes a purposeful sort of manner. Is that, so those are my three things that all happened in the wake of my transition. Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
What…what significance did your transition have with then becoming a writer? It seems like an obvious question, but I know that you’re not only a very serious scholar, biologist and theorist…
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
…and and writer of essays, large and small, essays from a mere 500 words to
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
p…perhaps 5000 and more. You’re not just…
Julia Serano
I’ve written a 10,000 word essay before, and I’m not ashamed of it.
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
That’s a lot, for the people who don’t…
Suzie Sherman
Color me impressed.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
But you’re not just a serious writer. You’re also a songwriter and you’re also a creative writer. And you’re also the writer of novels. So tell me, when, what order did those manifest in? Or was it all just, did it all just coalesce kind of over time? Or at the same time?
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Did you kind of consider yourself a creative writer before you were a serious writer or vice versa?
Julia Serano
So it was all gradual. So here’s, and I think to understand why, like, the idea that I ended up like, being a writer is like, kind of, if you were to make me say, like, what I do for a living, or what I do in my life, I would say I’m a writer. And that’s really surprising, maybe not to other people, but to me, haha!
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
And the reason is, because when I was growing up, I was generally I was a pretty smart kid, you know, like, not like, not bragging or anything, but y’know, I was. I was clever, and I was creative in different ways. But I wasn’t good at writing. Writing was like, always my, the thing I was worse at, compared to everything else, I was. Yeah. And so, I realize now, like looking back on it. And especially I should say that I’m like Generation X. So like I’m growing up in the 70s. Like I went to high school in the 80s, high school and college in the 80s. So back then, I think we didn’t have a lot of the language we have today to talk about people having different types of learning styles or people being more skilled or more, interfacing better with certain types of media or learning than others, right? And so for me, what I now recognize is…
Suzie Sherman
You mean, you didn’t have like, necessarily something that was identified or recognized as in need of some kind of support, to be able to develop, your writing better or?
Julia Serano
Yeah, no, I don’t know that it was necessarily that, because I was okay at it. It wasn’t like I was bad at it, it was just the thing I was worse at.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
Does that make sense?
Suzie Sherman
Yep.
Julia Serano
And for me, it’s because I’m not a visual person at all. I’m like, I’ve come to know, through like, all sorts of different people in my life, that I just really don’t think visually at all, I think very audio-ish audio. Yeah, I’m very audio, I think in sounds, and like when I am with people, and I’m reading the same passage as them, they always get to the bottom and want to turn the page, and I’m like, I’m on the third sentence, haha,
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
And I realized over time that I’m actually, when I read, I translate every word that I see into a sound. And so it’s kind of like a slow process. And so I was always kind of very slow at it.
Suzie Sherman
So in your mind’s ear, you’re, you’re hearing yourself or the narrator speak the words, in a sense, is that what you mean?
Julia Serano
Yeah, I turn every word that I read into a sound. And…
Suzie Sherman
Yeah. I think really, I think I think really similarly, I’ve never articulated it to myself as such. But there’s a way in which my thoughts are in complete sentences. And they very much sound like words. They’re not, of course, there’s all kinds of, and for you, too, for all of us, there’s all kinds of unconscious thought process going on, that doesn’t get formed into words. But at the same time, when you’re conscious about your thought process…
Julia Serano
Uh huh.
Suzie Sherman
…it’s all being shaped into, essentially, auditory words that you’re hearing in your mind’s eye…in your mind’s ear.
Julia Serano
Yeah yeah yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Does that does that sound right?
Julia Serano
Yeah, that that makes sense. And I also, in talking to people who read really fast, compared to me, I know that they’re like, well just, I look at the words and I can…
Suzie Sherman
…and there’s automatic code, decoding of the words.
Julia Serano
Yeah, like, like, I can just see the word and they understand the word, whereas I turn into a sound and then I understand it. And it also makes sense of the fact that the thing I was absolutely the worst that for the longest time, I’m good now because I’ve been writing for a very long time, is spelling. I was always the worst speller. And I just didn’t understand spelling, and I realize now it’s because I think in sounds and the English language is a really messed up language and if I…
Suzie Sherman
Highly irregular.
Julia Serano
Yeah, if I, if I was brought up like speaking, you know Spanish or Italian, where the words are written the way they’re pronounced I would probably have done much better with spelling, but English is a very strange language with regards to that. So anyway, so I was always, that was always my, the thing I was least good at. I remember in high school, I had an English teacher who he was kind of messed up. And this is a messed up thing to say. But it was when we were doing this practice tests for the SATs. And I remember him saying that people who have 150 point difference between their math and verbal are psychologically imbalanced. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
What the fuck!?
Julia Serano
Haha! Yes. He said that. And he…
Suzie Sherman
Hahaha! Oh my god.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And…
Suzie Sherman
Wha?
Julia Serano
and yeah, so
Suzie Sherman
I really…
Julia Serano
he, okay, he was he was a piece of work. Haha.
Suzie Sherman
I’m writing this down to, I’m writing this down to fact check where this, where this meme came from.
Julia Serano
Yeah…
Suzie Sherman
…like where this idea came from. Because…
Julia Serano
Yeah, he I think he said something…
Suzie Sherman
…if you’re, if you’re gonna talk about it psychologically, it is so non-specific…
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…and ridiculous, haha.
Julia Serano
And it’s also, we’re talking, this is the early 80s when this is happening, right. So and I think he said he read somewhere that blah, blah, blah. And he wasn’t saying necessarily that he believed it, but he was just saying that that’s what people thought, and I took the SATs. So we’re practicing for the SATs, and I took the SATs. And the difference between my math and verbal was, was 300 points, haha!
Suzie Sherman
The golden ratio that meant they were nuts.
Julia Serano
Yeah, like 300 points I had like doubled the 150 point difference. So this is, the, all of this to say that I never imagined myself ever becoming a writer. Um, but then the other thing that’s weird about being a writer is we all write to some degree right? We leave ourselves notes, we send emails, we all write to some degree.
Suzie Sherman
Right, and when you went into the biology field, you, of course, had to write…
Julia Serano
Yeah. And so the two things…
Suzie Sherman
You had to write lab notes, you had to write reports, and then you probably, and then you wrote papers.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And so the two things that helped me a lot, like obviously, in school, you have to write term papers if to do those things. And you know, I did that in a passable manner. But the two things that really helped me a lot one was, when I went to grad school, I had to write a thesis. And, you know, I remember my early writings when I was in grad school and I’d write something and my thesis advisor would like, edit the crap out of it, haha. Like you’re just be like, completely different by the end, and it was like very disheartening. Like, he was trying to help me by showing me like, this is a better way to word this and everything. But it was very disheartening. So by the time I got done writing my thesis, I could write fairly well. I thought I was a halfway decent writer, in some respects. And then, um, I was also a musician, that was my main creative outlet throughout, throughout most of my life. And part of that for me was, I was really into writing songs. And I have a lot of those lyrics from over the years. And, you know, you can imagine all the late teen, early 20s, pretentious, like, you know, over the top beat you over the head with the premise of the song type of lyrics.
Suzie Sherman
So basically you were, you were writing like Steve Perry.
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
To bring it back…
Julia Serano
I didn’t…
Suzie Sherman
…to bring it back to Steve Perry and Journey, although I don’t know if I was recording that, I may have recorded it, so we’ll see. Haha!
Julia Serano
It’s okay. We were talking about “Oh Sherrie” by Steve Perry.
Julia Serano
His early solo work.
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
Um…
Suzie Sherman
I just always feel like, Journey songs are like the scrawl of an eighth grader.
Julia Serano
Haha! Yeah, I guess. Okay. I guess their distinction. So I did go through the period of just writing the like, ah, ridiculous like, you know, love song because I don’t know what else to write type of songs, that’s kind of like what like Journey is, you know, like just…
Suzie Sherman
Oh, that’s one of those pop music is…
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…really.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And then there’s the next level, where you think you’re smarter than everyone else, and like,so I remember writing, like that one song, the first thing that pops into my head was I wrote a song called “Cancer,” and it was about how human beings, like we’re destroying the environment, like we’re a cancer on the environment and that was like, like really intense. It was a pro climate change song, you know is is it was a halfway, the song itself was halfway decent, but like I listen to the lyrics now…
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
…haha, and I kind of laugh, because it’s just really over the top, like, you know, (singing) “You and I are cancer…”
Both
haha!
Julia Serano
Anyway. It sounds like, like if Morrissey did it, he could pull it off cuz he would make it funny, but I didn’t make it funny. But then…
Suzie Sherman
Too earnest.
Julia Serano
Yeah, it was to earnest, yeah. And then, and then because it was the 90s I got a little better, and so I wrote my songs got a little bit better, and they became funnier and less self-aware and everything anyway, so that was a way…
Suzie Sherman
Less self-aware?
Julia Serano
Less self-aware. Um, is that what I mean? I guess…
Suzie Sherman
Less self-conscious?
Julia Serano
I meant less. Yeah, less self-. Yeah, and less pretentious. Like it was. They became more, they felt more natural rather than like, I am going to do this with the song. Instead, I was more into letting the music kind of dictate the feel of the song and having the lyrics pair with the music, and kind of come about more naturally rather than me kind of saying, “with this song I am going to solve climate change,”
Both
haha!
Julia Serano
or something like that. And lyrics are very weird, like speaking of writing, because we were talking about words, like how many words, is something that like writers think about, that the average person who doesn’t do a lot of formal writing doesn’t necessarily know,
Suzie Sherman
Like word count?
Julia Serano
Yeah, word count. So like, we were talking earlier about how writing a 500 word piece for media outlet is really short. Like that’s like you barely have enough time to do anything. And like a lot of articles are 1000 words. And then like, if you write a 5000 word essay, that’s kind of like a bit of a long read. And anyway, a lot of lyrics are only like 100 words or less. So you don’t have any room to say anything. So you have to kind of be a little bit more poetic about it or a little more, invoking feelings and ideas rather than telling people exactly what is happening…
Suzie Sherman
Impressionistic, um hm.
Julia Serano
Yeah, more impressionistic. That’s a perfect word for it. Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh. So you, but you were, so you were pretty young when you started writing songs, even the earnest “human beings are a cancer on the planet”
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
lyrics but, so you were pretty young when you were writing.
Julia Serano
Yeah,I mean…
Suzie Sherman
…and it’s surprising to you, in some way, still, that you became a writer.
Julia Serano
Yeah. Because I don’t think that that was the thing I was good at. I thought I was better at the music part of writing songs than the word part.
Suzie Sherman
Ah, gotcha. Um hm, um hm.
Julia Serano
And I do have to say that when I was writing, the the “you and I are cancer” type of lyrics
Julia Serano
…that I thought that they were really good lyrics at the time. I look back on them and I find them kind of cringy because they’re just a little bit too over the top. It’s like, I really enjoyed punk rock music. You know, like I kind of, I would say I grew up with that, but I discovered it at a certain point, and I was super into it. But, like, you listen to a lot of punk lyrics, especially punk that tries to be political. And a lot of times, it’s just like kind of a really, again, just like over the top, like, maybe the word bombastic comes to mind.
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
Or, you know, some song lyrics can be like really, like, overly dramatic, like, especially a lot of love songs. It’s like, “I can’t live without you” kind of things. It’s like, yeah, I get that. And, you know, grief is hard, and stuff like that. But like, as as kind of a middle aged person, the idea like, I can’t live without you. It’s like, Okay, well, that’s like a little bit over the top, like, maybe like, “I’m gonna grieve for quite a while now that you’re gone.”
Julia Serano
But, you know, it’ll be a grieving period that may last up to a year or two, but I’ll eventually…haha!
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Are you saying that your writing and sensibilities have become a little more subtle?
Julia Serano
Yeah, a little more subtle. Haha.
Julia Serano
I mean, again, I think bombastic can be good, sometimes, so, I’m sort of riffing off myself. And I, I’m, let me let me revert to I statements. I think that like whatever people do is what they do. And I encourage people to do what they feel is right. I’m talking mostly for my own personal experiences. Looking back on my writing, I feel like a lot of it has been a lot of the early stuff was not good because it was a little bit over the top and meant a lot to me, but probably wouldn’t have resonated with other people.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
I guess that’s what I’m saying.
Suzie Sherman
Right. Um hm.
Julia Serano
Yeah, like bombastic isn’t necessarily bad, but sometimes if you are bombastic, it will, it won’t resonate with other people. That’s all I’m saying.
Suzie Sherman
Right. Yeah. It’ll be critiqued, shredded, generally.
Julia Serano
Yeah, I mean, well, I think any writing will be critiqued, like I can’t imagine that there’s anything that you could write, that there isn’t somebody who would think it was horrible, haha. So I don’t mind being critiqued. I guess I’m just, I do try to when I write, write in a way that resonates with a lot of people. But also, at the same time recognizing that some people will not like what I’ve written no matter what it is.
Suzie Sherman
Oh, for sure.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah, definitely. What, what is it like for you to be a writer and work with editors who, you know, and kind of develop a little bit of a thick skin about, or maybe not take so personally, criticism that comes, you know, to your writing, because that’s obviously part of developing a practice of writing that actually allows you to get to grow as a writer.
Julia Serano
Yeah, no, and it is hard. Like I mentioned my thesis advisor when I was writing my earliest, yeah, the earliest things that I wrote and just having them, like, shredded and like, you know, just red ink everywhere, haha. And that’s really disheartening, but he was trying to teach me like, it wasn’t like he just like, this is awful. He was like, “You should probably say this instead of that,” and “I would change this word to this, for this reason,” like he was really good at trying to show me the way. Um, now like, now that I’ve reached the point where I know that I’m fairly good writer, and I’m writing about things that are within my wheelhouse things that I feel like I know something about so I’m not venturing into writing about subjects that I have no clue about, which some people do.
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Some people seem to do that as a vocation.
Julia Serano
Yeah (x4). Yeah. It’s a kind of like the, you get to be the columnist of some like, you know, major publication where you get to write a weekly column about whatever crosses your mind that day, haha. I think of like, there’s a infamous one from like, I guess like two years ago; it was like a David Brooks column, haha, where…
Suzie Sherman
Um hm, um hm.
Julia Serano
It starts out with him and he’s buying a sandwich and it ends with him talking about Millennials being bad, haha!
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
Where you’re, like, you just you’re at the point that any any thought that crosses your mind gets to, like, be in the New York Times, haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
But um, but anyway, so I tried to stick in my wheelhouse, and I find that a lot of times, like with editors, if they suggest changes, I usually read them and then I like step away from it for a bit and then I reread them like, a little bit later. And then usually I’m like, Okay, I understand why that works. And I understand why they cut that part out that I liked, but I think that I get what they’re trying to do here. They’re trying to make it shorter. They’re trying to make it…cut the fat off, right? The proverbial, you know…
Suzie Sherman
Not literal adipose tissue.
Julia Serano
Yeah, haha, not literal adipose tissue. Um, but then sometimes the, the really big problems that I have had with editors, it usually stems from them fundamentally not understanding what I’m trying to say.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
And that can happen a lot, particularly as a trans, queer, feministy author who maybe is saying things that, sometimes that fall outside of the mainstream, and so you get people just fundamentally not understanding what it is that you’re trying to say. So that that can be kind of hard. Yeah, that’s why I started my Patreon, haha, so that I could just write on Medium for free and just be like, if you like this piece, support me on Patreon, rather than like, have to like, cuz here’s the thing that I think a lot of people, I think we all read articles, right, like from, from news outlets, media outlets.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
But most most people don’t know the sausage making behind it. And it can be really grueling, because a lot of it is, in my experience, because I got some notoriety as being an author, or being someone who if someone’s like, “Oh, we need someone to cover this transgender issue,” someone would mention my name, and then someone who has no idea who I am is like, “Oh, we were hoping you would write about transgender issues for us,” right? And, and then I, I pitch them ideas, and they’re like, what? Wha? Huh? You know, or I send them a copy, and it has the word “cisgender” in it, and they’re like, “Oh, I don’t know if our audiences will understand this “cisgender” word…
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
…you know, and so…
Suzie Sherman
“Why don’t you just tell us your very personal story.” Haha.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
About transition or whatever.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Why don’t you tell us this, this basic kind of trope or narrative that we want to have because we need to, you know, check that box, or whatever.
Julia Serano
Oh, totally, yeah. There was a point. I’ve, uh, I’ll leave out the publication, this is from a couple years ago. And this is kind of in the wake of, you know, remember there was a “transgender tipping point,” haha, a couple years ago?
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
And that has scare quotes, “transgender tipping point.” Um, and you know, it was…
Suzie Sherman
Did you coin that?
Julia Serano
No, no,
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
No, there was a Time Magazine article that like, Laverne Cox
Suzie Sherman
Oh, no shit!
Julia Serano
was on the cover of…
Suzie Sherman
Oh, gotcha!
Julia Serano
Time Magazine.
Suzie Sherman
Oh, I remember what you’re talking about. Um hm.
Julia Serano
Yeah, this is, yep, that came out in 2014. 2015 was the Caitlyn Jenner year.
Julia Serano
So, there was like a two year window, where for probably the average person who is mostly trans-unaware, all of the sudden trans people were everywhere! Like we all came out of the woodwork at the same time. And it was right around that time that a lot of media outlets seemed to be like, “Holy crap! We need someone who can write about this whole ‘transgender thing,'” right. And I found, at that time, I had people reaching out to me from mainstream outlets asking me to write for them, right?
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
As a freelancer. And freelancing sucks, haha, because basically you don’t have a job and they’re willing to pay you some money. It’s usually not a whole lot, like $200 I think it’s kind of if it’s a mainstream outlet. There are other places like the Huffington Post that don’t even pay most of the people who freelance for them. You’re doing it for the “exposure” that has…
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
..the scare quotes around it “exposure.” Um…
Suzie Sherman
Julia is a big fan of air quotes, everybody.
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Just so you know, even though she claims to be an auditory processor.
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
(still laughing) Who should understand the podcasting medium. Haha.
Julia Serano
Yes. But that’s why I’m telling people about the scare quotes…
Suzie Sherman
Haha. Yes.
Julia Serano
…so that they know, they can hear me talk about the scare quotes.
Suzie Sherman
I can I can hear it in your inflection.
Julia Serano
Haha! I yeah, that’s, it’s a good thing to do, especially, we’re in my favorite medium right now. Audio. Yeah, so regarding freelancing, which sucks, you, they’re like “Hey! We want you to write for us,” and then you start writing for them and like, they’ll offer you $200 for a piece, that if everything was in a perfect world, you would like spend a day writing and then you’d get $200 for it, and that would be okay. But like, sometimes they won’t like it. And they’ll suggest all these things. So anyway, there was a major news outlet that asked me to write about, write for them, about transgender people and politics, like national politics. I’m like, okay, I can do that. And the premise of it was that it wasn’t just Republicans who are anti-transgender, but it was people across the entire political spectrum. And that, like, was like, (explosion sound) blew their minds.
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Whaaat?
Julia Serano
They hated it. They just wanted me to be like, “It’s those nasty Republicans with their bathroom bills who are oppressing transgender people,” and I’m like, actually, all of us have a cisnormative mindset. Haha! And like…
Suzie Sherman
Actually…
Julia Serano
They’re like, what…
Suzie Sherman
all of us suffer, haha, from these exact same stereotypes.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And I, I made those…
Suzie Sherman
…even if we’re trans and queer. Yeah.
Julia Serano
…I made those arguments.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm. Interesting.
Julia Serano
Yeah, it was, and they hated it. And I eventually just was like, I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this piece. Like I went through three revisions. And it was just really clear at a certain point that it’s like, okay, you, and this is a thing. It was kind of like, “We want your voice. You know, we’d really like your transgender voice to be part of our publication. But we don’t like your opinion so much. So, a little more transgender voice, a little less transgender opinion.” Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha, yes. That’s right. It’s funny. There’s some kind of an irony, if we go back to the idea of punk rock being bombastic in some way, or
Julia Serano
Um hm. And not all punk rock, but, but…
Suzie Sherman
No, indeed. Yeah,
Julia Serano
but, some, there’s certain strands of it that can be that way.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
And I love punk rock. I say that as, I say that out of love, haha.
Suzie Sherman
Absolutely. Yes, I don’t want to, you know, brush with too what, what’s the? I don’t know, what’s the what’s the expression “use too, too wide a brush?” Is that the deal?
Julia Serano
Paint in too broad strokes?
Suzie Sherman
In broad strokes!
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
Haha. Yes. Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Want to use too wide a brush, yeah.
Julia Serano
Well, it’s kinda the same thing, broad, wide.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah, it’s basically the same but
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…it is not nearly as, what’s the word? It’s not as it’s not as poetic. No, of course. Yeah. But but kind of going back to that point, and then like, you know, thinking about your writing, developing nuance and sensitivity over time and you becoming a better writer, and maybe in a certain way, less a less bombastic writer, but sometimes the big media outlets that want you to write for them, they do want you to paint with broad brushstrokes. They do want you to make these, yeah, they do want you to kind of hammer their audience with this particular narrative, and you actually…
Julia Serano
Well, sometimes.
Suzie Sherman
…want to be.
Julia Serano
Yeah, and it depends. And also, I definitely think that there there are times to be in your face. That’s like one of my few things, right?
Suzie Sherman
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right.
Julia Serano
Yeah, I think there are times to be like, in people’s faces and times where that might not be the best strategy, depending on what you’re trying to do. And like, yeah, I kind of think of them. I think of it as a toolbox. I guess. Like, sometimes that’s a good tool, and sometimes it’s not a good tool.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
Um, yeah, I think when it comes to like media outlets, like a lot of times they have a preconceived notion of what trans rights is all about, for example, to use that as an example. But it could be any topic, and they want to hire someone to say the thing that they think that that group believes, like, like they have in their mind, kind of what the transgender piece is, and they’re just trying to find the transgender person who will write that for them.
Suzie Sherman
Right, I mean, they have plenty of cis dudes that they would love to give that article, but they feel like, in some way, they have to hire a trans person. So they want that person to parrot the narrative that their, their dude Friday…
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…would actually write for them, in a sense.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And then the other thing. The other thing is that the flip side of that is, sometimes they will seek out the one transgender writer who will say the thing opposite as the entire community. And that doesn’t necessarily mean just transgender people, like obviously, there is a lot of money to be made, if you are a member of a minority group who’s willing to say the thing that’s the opposite of everything, everybody else in the minority group is saying, haha, you know, like the and you can rise to the top and get your own Fox News program and everything. I don’t know, by being the kind of transgender naysayer, but like, you know, there are definitely a lot of people, I don’t need to name names, but like, the kind of the famous pundits who are the people who, you know, have like really traditional conservative views, despite being a member of a marginalized group, and who like, kind of speaks against. Yeah, so we all know that.
Suzie Sherman
Right? Yeah. Finding, finding token people who will reinforce the main narrative. Okay, so your your life branches in all these different ways that are unexpected. And one of them, obviously, is being a writer. And then, so you touched on, a little bit, on this idea of, like, being being a smoother-overer, or a, some, a peacemaker, maybe in your family, or maybe, I’m not sure exactly what your source…
Julia Serano
Um hm.
Suzie Sherman
…is for that, that you feel feel your source is for that. But that part of your, your exploration of your, your inner life, like has led you to be less of a peacemaker, and maybe, maybe kind of care less about keeping the peace because you have something to say, and it may agitate people.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And I think I mean, I guess this kind of maybe comes from a couple different places. Some of it might be just constitutional, like the kind of me generally being a pleaser…
Suzie Sherman
Just a temperamental thing, kind of, how you are.
Julia Serano
It could be it could be temperamental, it could also be, you know, one of the things that’s in my head that’s like, basically, I’m the oldest child in my family. The day before my first birthday, my mother had a second child because she’s Irish. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha, no broad brush strokes here!
Julia Serano
Catholic family in the 60s, right? Um, anyway, uh, so yeah, that might have sounded really bad, but I’m Irish, so I can say it. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Right, that’s right. I mean, there’s definitely a…
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…a cultural understanding about this, like “Catholic twins” or whatever.
Julia Serano
Yeah, exactly.
Suzie Sherman
Although, I’m Jewish, and my sisters are 15 months apart.
Julia Serano
Like all stereotypes, it’s, like, just a stereotype. Anyway, um, but my, so we had a child now I’m like one years old. And then, um, sadly, I don’t remember any of this, but six months afterwards, she died of pneumonia. And, um. It’s something, it’s a period of time in my life that I don’t have any memories from. But I remember my mother talking a lot about how, that period of time, and I’m sure it was like really horrible for my family. And she talked about how, you know, like, me being around really helped her during that period. And I have given some thought, it’s come up in my therapy. Haha. In the past, I’m not I’m not in therapy at the moment, but in past therapies, about how maybe that, maybe had some shape on, kind of me being that way, like, feeling like having the adults in my life be really, really sad, and me feeling like I need to make people feel better. So that was a lot of it. And then the other thing, I…
Suzie Sherman
I didn’t know, I’m sorry to interrupt. I didn’t know that you had that early loss, Julia.
Julia Serano
Yeah. Well, it’s not. And you can call it an early loss, for me it, it’s, it has never really felt like a loss. It’s just felt like a story. A family story.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
Because I don’t remember any of it.
Suzie Sherman
That’s interesting.
Julia Serano
For me, it was just a story. Oh, your sister Michelle. She died when you were six months old. You know, like, that was all it was. And then when, when I was in therapy, haha.
Suzie Sherman
You’re laughing, it’s like, “Therapy, is so passé.”
Julia Serano
Haha. Well, it’s just always, it’s kind of weird. It’s so bombastic to talk about your therapy in public, haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha! It’s so self indulgent.
Julia Serano
Yeah. No, I, I kid. Therapy is a good thing, if, if you can obtain it, and I was lucky enough at a particular point in my life, and this was shortly after my transition, it was not like the “transition related therapy.” I’ve put that in scare quotes too, “transition related therapy.”
Suzie Sherman
The mandatory gatekeeping…
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…of your transition…
Julia Serano
Yes.
Suzie Sherman
…maybe it’s what you’re referring to, yeah.
Julia Serano
Yeah. But this was shortly after I transitioned, I was experiencing a lot of intense emotional stuff. And so I went to therapy. And one of the things that came up was my therapist brought that up, because, and also one of the things I was sort of managing was, it was difficult for my family when I first came out for them to kind of accept it. And a lot of this was, like a lot of my personal feelings is related to me always kind of being the pleaser, always being the “Good Kid.” “Good Kid” is in scare quotes too. And so it was kind of hard all of the sudden be the black sheep. That was, that was difficult. Anyway, so I was always sort of the pleaser, I was the “Good Kid.” Like the idea of doing anything rebellious, that people would find out about, like, really freaked me out.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
But I was doing stuff that was very rebellious. And that, that leads to another thing, aspect, of this was also the closeted part, is a huge part of it, because I think that the whole, whole premise of being closeted is that you’re trying, you’re not doing things you want to do in order to protect the people around you.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
And maybe yourself. Like, you know, I definitely was closeted to protect myself from what other people would think or say or react to me. But I was also protecting everyone around me at the same time.
Suzie Sherman
Right. Well, you had the perception that you were protecting people around you.
Julia Serano
Yes.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
And, uh. Yes, that’s a great way of putting it, that it was the perception. I felt like I was protecting everybody from it.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
Um, so anyway, all those things kind of went into me being a pleaser. And if I was rebellious, it would be, I rebelled by being eccentric, rather than like rebellious. You know, I, I, uh…
Suzie Sherman
What did your eccentricity look like…
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
…at that time in your life, Julia? Haha!
Julia Serano
Haha! I listened to a lot of bombastic prog rock music…
Suzie Sherman
Haha! I was just gonna say…
Julia Serano
…and played it really loud. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
I swear to god, I swear to god, I was just gonna say, Did you listen to a lot of Rush?
Julia Serano
Of course I did. You know, me too well.
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
It’s also, we know each other, but also you grew up at a particular time. Right. And, so, eccentricity looked like a particular thing.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
You know, especially I think for white, middle class suburban kids in the late 70s, early 80s.
Julia Serano
Exactly. Yeah. And this is something…
Suzie Sherman
It looked like a certain thing. I was like, did you wear a cape, and a monocle?
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
No, and I could have been, a different life pathway, I could have been like a goth, or…
Suzie Sherman
Absolutely.
Julia Serano
…there might have been another pathway, but for me, it just turned out to be, like, a prog rock kid who blasted Rush and King Crimson and Emerson, Lake, and Palmer…
Suzie Sherman
You went into a fugue…
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
You went into a fugue of prog rock. Haha!
Julia Serano
Exactly. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
“I’m protecting everyone around me…”
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
“…from all of these things roiling inside me.” Haha!
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
“I’m in a protective shell…”
Julia Serano
I was I…
Suzie Sherman
“…of prog albums that are, you know, put together like orchestral massive orchestral movements.”
Julia Serano
Totally. Yeah. Haha. Yeah. It’s something I try to tell people who are somewhat younger. And I will do it here, it’s like being a Generation X person. At that time, like you said, particularly in kind of predominantly white, middle class suburban settings. There, this is all before the internet. It was really hard to find anything off the beaten path. Like when I first heard punk music, I was just like, what the hell was that? Where did that come from? Like, how did you get that? Like my friend who played me a cassette tape of, I think it was, who was it was it ah…It was somebody, it was like one of those Butthole Surfers, or what was Henry Rollins old band
Both
Black Flag.
Julia Serano
I think it was Black Flag.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
And I think that was the first punk rock band like real punk rock, not like fake, like pseudo punk rock. The first punk rock band I ever heard. I was just like, Where did you get that? Like, where did that come from? Um, anyway, so back then, when the only music that existed was like top 40 and and classic rock, prog rock was kind of like, the weirdest of all the musics, and that’s why I gravitated towards it. Haha.
Suzie Sherman
You said musics as if it were “magicks…”
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha…or maths
Julia Serano
Maths, yeah. Haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha. Just like either, either a British person normally would say, or like an eccentric, white suburban kid in the late 70s would say “musics.”
Julia Serano
But now we have the internets. Haha.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. That’s right. So you were getting your culture from, like a friend who was, like taping stuff, taping their records for you, and, and being like, “You have to listen to this,” or whatever. Or, like, tape, or going to a show and taping it and being like, “You have to listen to this.”
Julia Serano
Yeah, I mean, so it was, this is the thing it was an actual, the cassette tape was like the actual album, it wasn’t like just the, you know, they they bought the album, but it was just really hard to like, you couldn’t just walk into Sam Goody’s and buy Black Flag. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha! Sam Goody’s…
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
That’s right. Right.
Julia Serano
And Tower Records.
Suzie Sherman
Like, I don’t, yeah, I was gonna say you don’t, I don’t think Black Flag made it into the Personics System.
Suzie Sherman
Haha! Do you remember? You would go into a Tower Records, and there’s a machine that sort of looks like a jukebox. But…
Julia Serano
Haha!
Julia Serano
Yeah, I rememb…
Suzie Sherman
You could just custom make a cassette tape for, for yourself.
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah, I vaguely remember that…
Suzie Sherman
But yeah, but I’m pretty sure Black Flag wasn’t in the offer.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And they weren’t on MTV and all that stuff. So, um, and I discovered it later and the, you know, and that actually was a huge influence on me because I was a musician at the time, and I got really into the alternative music, the indie music as we called it back then, but it was kind of a really cool thing, in that, people mock it now, this is something that, can I can I talk, can I go off on a tangent?
Suzie Sherman
We’re all on tangents, it’s great! Do it.
Julia Serano
Haha! I’ve seen a lot of people kind of mock like 90s culture like, “Oh, like, people in the 90s being ‘ironic'” (scare quotes again).
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
Um, you know, all the time and like, acting really like snobbish about their music and everything. But the truth of the matter was…
Suzie Sherman
People of every era were snobbish about their music. Probably.
Julia Serano
I know. Yeah. I mean, anything you say about one generation applies to all the other generations.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
Yeah. Um, there was a thing though, where the fact…you can find obscure bands right now, like, on the internet, on Pandora, on Spotify, like it’s really easy to discover obscure bands. At the time, back then, like it was really, really hard. And so there was a lot of work that would go into kind of discovering all sorts of art, whether it’s music, whether it was film, whether it was whatever, like it was really hard to find things that were off the beaten path at the time. This also goes, since I am right now on the Marc Maron meets the Oakland queer scene podcast…
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
Was I going with that? Um. I forget exactly what I…
Suzie Sherman
Finding obscure music?
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forget why I brought up the Marc Maron angle. Oh, queer. Yeah, cuz queer, Oakland queer scene, like, queer culture was a lot like that, too…
Suzie Sherman
We’re not saying you’re queer, Marc, by the way.
Julia Serano
What?
Suzie Sherman
I was just telling Marc Maron, because obviously he’ll be listening to this.
Julia Serano
Yeah, well, of course.
Suzie Sherman
That we weren’t saying you were queer.
Julia Serano
Oh, yeah, yeah, no.
Suzie Sherman
Haha. It’s a metaphor, Marc.
Julia Serano
Yeah, I think…
Suzie Sherman
It’s a metaphor.
Julia Serano
I think he’ll be okay with it. I think he will be. He’ll get it.
Suzie Sherman
He seems pretty chill.
Julia Serano
When you two do your like, you know Terry Gross/Marc Maron…
Suzie Sherman
Yeah. Yeah.
Julia Serano
…you know Suzie Sherman/Marc Maron, duel interview…
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
…like that sort of thing. I’m sure you’ll you’ll work it all out then.
Suzie Sherman
Yes.
Julia Serano
But uh, no, no, no. Okay. Queer culture…
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
…was a lot like indie culture, alternative culture, all that stuff. It was just really hard to find queer culture.
Suzie Sherman
Absolutely. Of course.
Julia Serano
I mean…
Suzie Sherman
And, and where did you grew up, Julia?
Julia Serano
I grew up in a suburb just outside of Philadelphia.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
I actually, so this is kind of interesting. I actually. So, I basically, when I was in high school, I tried to look up words that had “trans” in the library, the local library…
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
…there were no books. And then I went to college, there were four books, and three of them were abnormal psychology books…
Suzie Sherman
Right, of course.
Julia Serano
…and one of them was, I’m blanking on her name Jan Morris, Jan Morris’s autobiography, like, one of the earliest trans autobiographies.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
Um, anyway, by the time I kind of got to the point that I, like, was like, I can’t really not express myself in these ways, I was in Lawrence, Kansas at the time, and I sought out, there was a, the, advertised on the back page of the local alternative weekly paper. It was a group called Crossdressers and Friends.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
No scare quotes; that’s what it was called. And, you know, this is 1993 or ’94…
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
…when I first sought them out, and I went there for the first couple of, the actually, to, in order to attend the meetings, you you were doubly interviewed, you had to go through a phone interview, and then someone met you in person to verify that you were legit. Just because, like, there was so much…fear.
Suzie Sherman
Like you were not someone who was coming to the meeting to bash people.
Julia Serano
Exactly.
Suzie Sherman
Basically, right.
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah.
Julia Serano
And so anyway, I went to that group, and was at that group for a while. And it really struck me a couple years later, when I realized that this is like 1994. It was like, I never heard anyone say, hey, there’s this book by this person, Kate Bornstein that just came out, or Leslie Feinberg, like these really important trans books came out around that time. And I don’t know that anyone was even aware of them. Like that’s kind of how hard it was to find things back then.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
To find culture, to find communities.
Suzie Sherman
Right. But we were actually kind of on a tangent. As you said, “Can I go, can I go on a tangent?” And I so graciously gave you permission, haha, as if I’ve been focused in any way.
Julia Serano
I was on a tangent when I asked to go on a tangent.
Suzie Sherman
Yes, yes. But we had been talking about sort of growing up as someone who was interested in keeping things smooth and not rocking the boat, really.
Julia Serano
Okay.
Suzie Sherman
So I don’t know if there’s more you wanted to say…
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah, I mean I can…
Suzie Sherman
…about that and how you emerged and how you had to…
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah, let me do that.
Suzie Sherman
How you had to emerge on, you know, into, you know, advocating for yourself and, and making it uncomfortable for people, because it was necessary for you to thrive in your life.
Julia Serano
Sure, yeah. So there were, there was that multitude of reasons why I tended to be a pleaser, I tended to not be rebellious. I tended to do my rebellion behind closed doors, so no one was looking or when I was out at a Crossdressers and Friends, haha, support group that most people in my life had no clue that I was going to.
Suzie Sherman
Do you have any contact with any of those folks?
Julia Serano
No, I don’t. I got an email, because I mentioned it in my, my first book Whipping Girl.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
Which, so my first book, Whipping Girl, came out in 2007. And I was at that group in 19…uh, ’93, ’94…
Suzie Sherman
Mid-90s, yeah, early-mid 90s.
Julia Serano
So, it was already 15 years later. Now, we’re talking about like, it was a lifetime ago, pretty much. Um, so I never heard from anyone from that. But I did get a letter from someone who I think attended the group years later, and I talked particularly about, in Whipping Girl, I mention this awesome, she was a crossdresser, her name was Deborah. And she kind of took me under her wing. I think, we all have like, we kind of come up with little narratives in our head. I think she realized that I was kind of like a little bit weird, and she was weird. And she was kind of like, the, like, eccentric aunt of the group, like a lot of the people there. It’s really hard to try to describe in 2019 what crossdresser culture was like in 1993. It probably will sound really dated and really heteronormative, like it was, like, a lot of people who, many of whom were like middle-age, assigned male a birth people, who this was their one chance that they would get once a month or twice a month to present “en femme.” That’s scare quotes like that. That’s not scare quotes, that’s just in quotes.
Suzie Sherman
“En femme” with an “e” at the beginning?
Julia Serano
“e-n f-e-m-m-e”
Suzie Sherman
Yep. “en femme,” (trying to pronounce, as in French) “en femme, “en femme.”
Julia Serano
as feminine, as a woman, as feminine.
Julia Serano
Yeah, exactly.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
Um, that was that was the language and, you know, to let their feminine side out that was how people would often describe it. And who knows, what all those people, how they would identify, if they were, you know, they might be alive today, but like how they might have identified had they grown up like 20 years later, I don’t know.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
But um, but it was basically it was the chance, and people would be, present, very as, uh, heteronormatively feminine as possible, not in order to be heteronormative, but because that was like, what you saw in the world, and if you have feelings that, like, I feel like, I should be a woman, or I have a womanly side in me, or a feminine side I want to let out, that’s how a lot of these people did.
Suzie Sherman
Right. And it’s, and it seemed like that’s the way that it would be expressed. Primarily, right?
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Through sort of a very high femme…
Julia Serano
Yeah. And it was…
Suzie Sherman
…uh presentation. Yeah.
Julia Serano
And I also called it heteronormative. But it was very much cisnormative, like just trying to be like, as close to being, you know, a “normal feminine woman” (that’s in scare quotes) haha.
Suzie Sherman
Heh!
Julia Serano
…as possible.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
And you know, and that was kind of like the image that I had in my head when, when all that was going on. And Deborah was like, the eccentric aunt, and she would come and she would have different personas, haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
Because like, and I got to know her pretty well. And from her perspective, it’s like, when I do this, I get to be whoever I want, rather than like, I’m supposed to be this. I’m going to try to be this feminine ideal. She was just like, you know, today I’m going to be like, you know, I would like this type of woman. And then sometimes she would be that type of woman, like she played with it. I know, in getting to know her, she had theater background too. So she really had a lot of fun with it.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm. Was it like different styles? Was it like actual costumes?
Julia Serano
It was no, it wasn’t costumes, per se, because it was, you know, she would like, you know, walk through the world, walk down the street. But like, sometimes she would be like, very conservative, you know the type woman.
Suzie Sherman
Business woman with a blazer.
Julia Serano
Yeah, like, yeah. And then sometimes she would be like, (in high society accent) “eccentric rich lady who just didn’t care what people thought what she said,” You know, like, like,
Suzie Sherman
She’d put on a persona, yeah.
Julia Serano
She would sometimes do accents. You know, she would do different accents. She was a really awesome person.
Suzie Sherman
What a sweet role model for you to have…
Julia Serano
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…and friend.
Julia Serano
And she took me under her wing one day, and was just like, and you know, I was. This may sound. It might not sound very progressive today, but like I was just really bad, I was really bad with makeup. I was like self-taught trying to figure out what to do about makeup.
Julia Serano
And I need to say this, like, uh, there are critiques of people who don’t really have much background experience with people, with trans women, or people on the trans feminine spectrum, about like, “Oh my god, they wear so much makeup, like a ‘parody of real women.'” Right?
Suzie Sherman
Of course.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
That’s all scare quotes. And, but what they don’t understand is, particularly if you are assigned male birth, and you haven’t transitioned, like actually a lot of times wearing makeup is a way to cover up, conceal facial hair, haha, like five o’clock shadow and stuff like that. Anyway, so…
Suzie Sherman
Right, like secondary sex characteristics, that, yeah.
Julia Serano
Yeah, exactly. Like, so there’s a certain amount of it being very useful for people to present the way that they want to be perceived. And anyway, she took me under like her wing, she was just like, “I need to teach you, teach you how to do your makeup.” And that may sound, like, sort of obnoxious, but it was very sweet and done with the best of intentions. And anyway, so I got to hang out with her a couple times, like in private. And she, like, not only showed me how to do makeup, but like, you know, like, we got to be friends and everything. And then I moved away and I never saw her again, which is sad. But anyway.
Suzie Sherman
There are definitely people who are time-place-specific connections that that you have.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
It’s interesting now with social media with digital social media, a lot of us are able to be back in touch with people we never thought we would be able to be…
Julia Serano
Uh huh.
Suzie Sherman
…in touch with. So that was why I asked that question like…
Julia Serano
Yeah…
Suzie Sherman
…have you been in touch with any of them?
Julia Serano
Well, yeah, and the other thing…
Suzie Sherman
I imagine that you would have definitely lost touch, over swaths of time.
Julia Serano
The other thing about that era, though, is that, like we at that group, all went by our en femme names.
Suzie Sherman
Right, that’s right.
Julia Serano
I shouldn’t say and all of us because there were a couple of like trans male trans masculine spectrum people who would go to the meetings. But um, but so they weren’t “en femme,” but, um, most of us were going by non…
Suzie Sherman
“En homme,” perhaps?
Julia Serano
What?
Suzie Sherman
“En homme,” perhaps.
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
I guess, yeah. I’m not, I’m not fluent in “Francois!” Haha!
Both
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
I’m now going into the Better Off Dead scene
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
“Franch dressing…”
Julia Serano
“Franch fries,” Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Right, so you didn’t, you, probably there weren’t too many people in that group whose last names you knew…just names they went by.
Julia Serano
I didn’t know any of them. I didn’t know any of their last names, they didn’t know mine.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah.
Julia Serano
Um, and I didn’t know any of their, with one except, with one exception. There might have been a couple, more than one exception, but there were only a couple of them that I knew what their everyday non-trans names were, like the ones that they went by in everyday life. So yeah, so it’s like almost impossible to, like, even if I wanted to look people up on Facebook, I wouldn’t even know where to begin.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
So.
Suzie Sherman
So as you’re like gaining resources for yourself and figuring it out and coming out and, and your family is dealing with it, I’m, I’m, I’m gathering that you have increasing capacity to be able to tell it like it is and not worry too much about.
Julia Serano
Yeah. And so…
Suzie Sherman
…kind of the, the impact of, you know, obviously you cared about the impact it was having, having but like, to be able to advocate for yourself without holding yourself back, in the same way that you were.
Julia Serano
Yeah, I mean, Yeah, and I would say at first, when I would come out to people. All the early experiences of that were really, I was very tentative and delicate. You know, like I, you know, “I need to tell you something, and I want you to feel like you can ask me anything about What I’m about to tell you now and it will be okay.” Like, I was very, very, and I think that that’s a very kind of normal reaction when people are first coming out.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
And then what happens is you go through about a year of your life, and, and a weird part about being trans, that that is adjacent or similar in some ways to like coming out as like gay or lesbian or bisexual or, or any thing else that you might come out as, as a gender or sexual minority is that sometimes, especially back then, because I couldn’t change some legal stuff. So I felt like I was always like, kind of in this situation where, at any point, I would just have to come out to people as trans. And this is also like, 2001, 2002, back when most people didn’t really know or understand. Like, now everyone has a touchstone if, if I were to say I’m transgender, they might have a lot of misconceptions about it, but they can think of Oh, like Caitlyn Jenner. Or Laverne Cox or, like they at least have something, even if it’s filled with misconceptions or stereotypes.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
But back then people had no idea. And so like, I would like, haha, show up someplace, like I’d go to the bank. And I’d be like, “I have to change my name.” And it’s like, “Well, why are you changing your name?” It’s like, “Because I’m transgender.” And they’re like, “What?” “Because I’m a transsexual.” “What?” You know, it’s like,
Suzie Sherman
They had no idea.
Julia Serano
“I USED TO BE A MAN, BUT NOW I’M A WOMAN.”
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
Like. It was like, really…
Suzie Sherman
You hella over-modulated on that line.
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
Of course.
Suzie Sherman
That was very like, that was very, like, flashback to Ellen’s coming out moment.
Julia Serano
I mean, that’s what it would be like and, and, and I would, I would be very frustrated. But also, I reached a certain point where I really didn’t give a shit, if they thought about, like, at first you’re like, “Oh my god, what will everyone think if I’m transsexual, if they find out I’m transsexual?” and like about a year later, I was like “I’M TRANSSEXUAL, OKAY?” That probably over-modulated, too.
Suzie Sherman
Right, haha, it’s alright. Haha!
Julia Serano
Yeah. So…haha!
Suzie Sherman
We’ll do some quieter outtakes later,
Julia Serano
Okay. We’ll dub it in.
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
Instead of me yelling, “I’M TRANSSEXUAL!” we’ll go. (quiet) “I’m transsexual.”
Both
Haha.
Julia Serano
Um, haha, Anywho, uh…
Suzie Sherman
That’s right. Yeah. Like, you go, you go through that dialogue with enough people. And probably you had to go through the dialogue more than, many more times than once with the same people, right, to kind of get it through people’s heads.
Julia Serano
Yeah, so there’s…
Suzie Sherman
So at a point, where it’s like, you know this about me.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
You need to deal with it.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Right. You need to read some books, or whatever.
Julia Serano
So that was a huge part of it. Like I can definitely tell…so I got into, we were speaking about writing and all these things are tied together, but like, I started doing slam poetry shortly after I transitioned, which is kind of weird. Um, the reason for it, because we were talking earlier about, I was talking about writing my thesis and writing song lyrics.
Suzie Sherman
Yeah. And your, and your writing has taken a lot of different forms, both creative and nonfiction forms.
Julia Serano
Yeah. But I would say that the way that the writing took shape after I transitioned was first, I had a lot of stories, I wanted to tell, things I want to get off, out, out of my mind, off my mind, when I was first transitioned. And I did that through slam poetry, which no one ever imagines that they’re going to grow up to be a slam poet. Haha. And a lot of us…
Suzie Sherman
Well, maybe people now do come up in communities where slam poetry is a big cultural touchstone, but in you know, when you’re coming up in the 70s, in the 80s. And then, and then coming into a queer milieu as well, where there’s a lot of spoken word and open mic nights, and stuff like that…
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…it becomes more it, it becomes more of a possibility and not something that you imagined. Yeah. When you were growing up,
Julia Serano
I and I have found I don’t know what it’s like now. But definitely when I was doing that, again, this was kind of like the the early Aughts. Slam poetry still, like it felt kind of new. Not everybody knew about it in a way that I mean, I’m sure not everyone knows about it now. But I talked to a lot of people who became slam poets who kind of had a similar story, which was, you know, I never thought I would be a writer. And then I started going to these poetry slams, and I’m like, I got to do this, or I need to do this. And for me, it was like, I had been going to them for a while. Because my partner was a co-host of the Berkeley Poetry Slam back then. So I was just going to them and it just sort of worked its way into my brain. And then when I started wanting to write about my trans experiences, they sort of came out as slam poems.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
And so I initially did that and like, for like the first year or so a lot of them were kind of funny and charming and sweet. And then, um,
Julia Serano
…the following year, I was like, the angry transsexual woman on stage. So I was kind of I was both, a. getting more comfortable being out as trans, but also, the more out I was, the more shit I’d get. And so that made me angrier. And then there’s a whole other level of shit. That was, you know, I transitioned. I was still a relatively young woman, who suddenly, who was very well aware before I transitioned that women face sexual harassment, and I heard all my friends’ stories and I’ve, you know, I read Bitch magazine, and I had a very good sense on an intellectual level, that I would face a lot of harassment and sexism. But it’s a totally different thing to all of a sudden experience it on a day to day basis.
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
And that made me really angry. So it’s not just I’ve been…
Suzie Sherman
Fuck, yeah.
Julia Serano
…I’ve been calling myself an angry trans woman or angry transsexual. I was also an angry feminist, an angry woman. And I think, it’s kind of interesting. We’ve had recently, a lot, there’s been a lot of blowback against activists over the last like five years or so. And one of the things that I receive, of people kind of, who aren’t activists, who are like, “Well, these these activists, I don’t understand why they have to yell, and I don’t understand why they need to, like, block things and tell people they shouldn’t do this and that,” and it’s like, okay, you haven’t experienced the anger that comes from being marginalized on an everyday basis.
Suzie Sherman
Right. Yeah, people, people sort of sitting in the armchair and telling organizers and activists how to organize comes from a level of comfort…
Julia Serano
Oh, totally, yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Haha…where…basically they just see that their lives are being inconvenienced, right?
Julia Serano
Yeah, without a doubt. I recently read an amazing tweet that I can’t tell you who said it. So my apologies. I’m going to paraphrase it.
Suzie Sherman
I’ll look it up.
Julia Serano
But they, they said, as a historian, one thing I’ve learned is that if you want to know where true power resides, look at the people who are telling everyone else to calm down and be reasonable. Haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha! That’s so true. That’s so astute.
Julia Serano
So yeah, so I was, I was, and that’s when I was kind of like, in my really in-your-face, rebellious, angry trans woman, badass trans woman stage of my life. I’ve mellowed out a little more since then. I can still be when I need it. I can still kind of pull that out. Um, but it was really important for me at the time, both as a shield to protect myself, but also because it felt like nobody was listening or understood where I was. And it felt sort of necessary to be in-your-face about it.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
And it was, as you say, really surprising growing up as someone who was trying to protect other people around you, trying not to make waves like…
Julia Serano
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s kind of weird that I all of the sudden realized that like, holy crap, I’m a troublemaker now, haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha, right. You’re a shit-stirrer.
Julia Serano
I don’t identify as a troublemaker.
Suzie Sherman
Haha, right.
Julia Serano
I transitioned from pleaser to troublemaker.
Both
Haha.
Julia Serano
We don’t really use this language anymore, but it was a P to T transition. Pleaser to Troublemaker.
Suzie Sherman
Oh, yes! Haha!
Julia Serano
For all the (?) we don’t really use the “M to F,” “F to M”
Suzie Sherman
Yeah, indeed.
Julia Serano
…language anymore, but I was a P to T transsexual.
Both
Haha.
Suzie Sherman
Do you want to talk more? I think I feel like we talked a lot about, how so how you emerged in these in these unexpected branches in your life. We’ve talked quite a bit about being a writer, but we haven’t really talked too much about your transition from B to, to NFT transition, haha, which was, which was your, your Biologist to, haha, “Notable Feminist Theorist…”
Suzie Sherman
…in air quotes, uh, transition, so I’m kind of curious about, you know, the development of that, and it’s a really, really, you know, one of the reasons why your, your voice on trans issues, on feminist issues, on matters of gender and politics is so unique, is because of your biology background. It really, it’s a, it’s a really needed voice in the public discourse. So, just curious about that transition in your life and how that start–you know, I don’t know if you can…
Julia Serano
Haha.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…kind of pinpoint some of the ways in which that started to evolve.
Julia Serano
Yeah. Um, so for me, the biology part was, um, I’m just want to say like a path of least resistance with regards to like, what do you want to be when you were up?
Suzie Sherman
Haha, uh huh.
Julia Serano
And this is what I mean by it, I was always drawn to science as a kid, like, I’d always like, you know, like, my parents are like, you know, relatives would give me books on dinosaurs or outer space, and I would just, like, be super duper into it and everything. So I was always into science. And then I’m in high school…
Suzie Sherman
Haha, they were, they were like, “I’m sure,” haha, “I’m sure this is going to lead to a childhood listening to Rush.”
Julia Serano
Haha!
Suzie Sherman
“Here’s this book about dinosaurs and outer space.”
Julia Serano
Haha, well, you know, the Rush song, “The Trees…”
Suzie Sherman
Yes, yes.
Julia Serano
Haha! Very much influenced me politi…I dunno, it’s kind of funny.
Suzie Sherman
It probab…I don’t know if it influenced you politically, because that’s kind of their most and Ayn Randian, haha…
Julia Serano
Well, it’s kind of funny. Okay, so…
Suzie Sherman
Rush at their most Randian…
Julia Serano
Yeah, so it’s kind of funny, I actually I, so I recently wrote a fiction book. It’s called 99 Erics, it’s not out yet, so I won’t like go into the whole spiel about it. But there’s one section where the protagonist talks about how she got into Ayn, Ayn Rand as a, as a teenager, and it was because she listened to Rush and she found out that their drummer, who wrote all the lyrics was really into Ayn Rand. And it’s partly true in that like, I the only Ayn Rand book I read was Anthem, which is the one that became the influence for the “Concept Album.” Those scare quotes, “Concept Album,” in bombastic voice 2112…
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
…by Rush. So anyway, so I i definitely for very brief time flirted with Ayn Rand. But thankfully, I was brought back by, haha!
Suzie Sherman
By, uh, basic human decency, haha!
Julia Serano
Actually, actually, I think I was brought back by the fact that all of her books are like 1000 pages long, and I’ve already talked about how difficult it is for me to read for visual reasons.
Both
Haha!
Julia Serano
No, um, anyway, I mean, I was too young at the time to really even know what libertarian was, other than, “Yeah, man. I get it, like individualism.”
Suzie Sherman
Haha!
Julia Serano
So, so okay, we went off on the Rush tangent.
Suzie Sherman
Haha, I was asking you about the transition in your life between being a biologist and becoming a “Noteworthy Feminist Theorist.”
Julia Serano
Yes. Okay. So, biology, path of least resistance. You get to high school and people are like, “Well, what do you want to be when you grow up? What do you want to major in in college,” and you’re just like, a teenager and I wanted to be a rock star, but like, you can’t like, they won’t let you go to college to major in rock star, right? Um, so I had to pick something, and I’m like, Well, I like biology in the most of all the classes I had. So I majored in biology. And then when you major in biology, they’re like, “What do you want to do after that,” and there were kind of like two pathways. And one is become a doctor. (snort!)
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
And I wasn’t against it. But then I had, uh, my cousin’s husband. He was like, it’s been so long since I saw Grey’s Anatomy, so I forget whether it’s resident or something. He was one of those people wasn’t like a full, like, full time doctor, but he was more than past medical school, sort of doctor.
Suzie Sherman
I don’t know, I don’t know the order of the paths, if it’s intern, or resident. Yeah.
Julia Serano
Yeah. He was one of those things. And he’s like, “Do you want to come with me on my tours?” And I’m like, Okay, sure. And I did his tours with him. And I’m just like, oh my god, I don’t want to be a doctor. And it was mostly because of like dealing with with patients who had a lot of problems, and were in a lot of pain and blood, I don’t like blood, haha. And I was just like, Yeah, I don’t want to be a doctor. I highly, highly respect people who choose that as their calling. I, 100% kudos to them, but I have issues with blood. And I have enough pain going on inside of my brain, haha, that I don’t necessarily need to see it in my day to day life…
Suzie Sherman
Mm.
Julia Serano
…outside to me. Anyway, so I’m like, Well, I guess I go to grad school for biology? And I did that. And then I came out here to the Bay Area to do my postdoc, although I particularly, I got a postdoc in a really good lab. But I also purposefully chose this possibility over one in Boston, because I felt like the Bay Area, from everything I heard, would be the best place for me to explore my gender…
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
…to explore being trans.
Suzie Sherman
I love thinking about this sort of flowchart of your life. And this is something I think about a lot with the theme of this podcast…
Julia Serano
Uh huh.
Suzie Sherman
…and just being really both fascinated and grateful and horrified by, haha, all at the same time, the the ways that our life branches off in these different ways.
Julia Serano
Oh, yeah.
Suzie Sherman
And sometimes, there are decisions that we make that are relatively arbitrary, like you were at a certain point, like, “What do I want to be when I grow up, well, I kind of like science, I kind of like biology, sort of, well…”
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
“…I’ll just do that,” right? And then you know, you know, so sometimes it’s sort of an arbitrary branch that you follow…
Julia Serano
Um hm.
Suzie Sherman
…and sometimes, or seemingly arbitrary, and sometimes it’s like, it’s a little more, you find the branch with a little more trial and error, a little more knowledge or a little more understanding about what your temperament is like, like, you figured out that you didn’t want to be a doctor. So you’re going to go a research path…
Julia Serano
Um hm.
Suzie Sherman
…and of course, choosing the Bay Area was also a very intentional choice that you made.
Julia Serano
Yeah. Um, yeah, they all kind of sort of came together in an interesting way. But anyway, I really enjoyed being a biologist. I like science. So, anyway, that was just my background and people are like, “Oh, did you study gender? When you were like, you know, doing research in biology?” It’s like, Um, no, I studied fruit flies.
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
And I studied how crustacean embryos develop. Those are the things I did.
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
Like, heh, um…
Suzie Sherman
You’re not following the script, Julia!
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
Haha.
Julia Serano
Yeah, so anyway, I was in developmental biology, and I learned a lot about genetics. I mean, I was very much a geneticist. And that definitely gave me some insight into biology. And then when I, I always, ever since I was a kid, was curious about this whole gender thing that I was dealing with. “Gender Thing” TM, trademark.
Suzie Sherman
Not, t–trademark, not Transcendental Meditation.
Julia Serano
Haha, yes, anytime I say “TM” at this point forward, it’s trademark. So I was curious about gender, and, uh, I read a lot, and so I was able to read biological articles as I became more aware of like trans literature and where that overlaps with queer communities and queer theory and feminist stuff, I absorbed all of that. Um, and in my own head, I kind of felt that a lot of the biology stuff that I was reading really kind of ignored anything outside of actual biology. And on the other side, that a lot of queer and feminist literature took the opposite stance, like stressing like how much we’re shaped by social norms, and, but denying any role for biology.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
And I am the, you’re both right. Can’t we be in the sensible middle on this? Haha.
Suzie Sherman
Yes, and!
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Yes, and.
Julia Serano
I mock, I mocked centrism just then, but in reality I have forwarded in my writings, kind of like a holistic view of gender and sexuality, where I believe it comes from a mixture of, you know, there’s some biological influences, but they can be trends that exist throughout the population, or throughout a particular people, of a particular genetic background, but there are also lots of individual biological variation. Similarly, we can be socialized and some of the socialization we experience may be similar to what other people experience, but we also, each of us, has individual experiences. And so you put all that together, and you get this unfathomably complex mix of things that shape each of us, and so we each have a somewhat, we each have similarities with Other people, but also we exhibit our own differences. And I think that’s true for gender and sexuality. So that’s been my main, one of the one of the contributions, haha. And for me, that has been really helpful kind of having the mixture of understanding biology and having, like, read and appreciate a lot of like feminist theory, but then also on top of that, having the experience of like moving through the world being perceived as male…
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
…then, all of a sudden, like moving to the world being perceived as female. All that together has informed my viewpoint on this whole Gender Thing or Gender Stuff. I forget which one we trademarked.
Suzie Sherman
Gender Odyssey. Oh, actually, I think that might already be a trademark. Haha.
Suzie Sherman
That was that was I don’t know if they’re still going but that was a Northwest trans masculine spectrum conference for a long time.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. It’s actually like, a really synchronistic blend of influences that you had to, be, to unfold as the specific notable feminist theory theorist that you are.
Julia Serano
Um, I’m notable for my my distinct blend. It’s kind of like I’m a really good cannabis. I’m like a very good blend, haha!
Suzie Sherman
Haha! Yes, exactly, exactly. Just enough to get you high, and just enough to kind of chill you out or whatever.
Julia Serano
It’s like 30% indica. Haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha! That’s right.
Julia Serano
40% sativa…
Suzie Sherman
But it’s, there’s, there’s a way in which, when you were talking about your experience or this awakening of when you started to be perceived as a woman getting more negative attention and sexist responses, harassment…
Julia Serano
Uh huh.
Suzie Sherman
…and different things that people who are perceived as feminine or perceived as women from earlier in life, were dealing with, and kind of having this experience of like, understanding and integrating the sexism piece of, of trans experience was really, really instrumental in your work, Whipping Girl. And I really, like when we were talking about it, you know, that experience that you had earlier, I just, I just think we should give all, haha, we should we should fund a campaign to like, airdrop Whipping Girl to every trans exclusionary radical feminist, haha, that there is, because they need to read it. They actually need to read that the building blocks of transphobia, you know, are rooted in sexism.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Especially transphobia against trans feminine people.
Julia Serano
Yeah. I,and look for me, a lot of that really came together. Yeah, and I, this is kind of where the mixture of becoming a writer, becoming a feminist theorist, and becoming a kind of in-your-face troublemaker person all sort of came together. This is 2003 my transition two years before this, I’m a slam poet, and I got invited, I was part of a fundraiser, I helped put on a fundraiser in the Bay Area for Camp Trans. For those who do not remember do not know of, it was the long standing protest of the Michigan Women’s Music Festival’s, um, “women-born women” scare quotes again, policy which basically excluded trans woman from attending. And, and Michigan Women’s Music Festival, for those who do not know of it, it was for the very longest time, the largest women-only festival on the planet. So it was kind of notable that they purposefully excluded trans women, that’s why it became a protest that was important over the years for transgender activism.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
Okay.
Suzie Sherman
And it was like a, you know, lasted nearly 40 years…
Julia Serano
Um hm.
Suzie Sherman
…and its demise came pretty much precisely from their trans-exclusionary policy…
Julia Serano
Yeah, they lost, they started…
Suzie Sherman
…and being challenged about it.
Julia Serano
Yeah, they started, they, they started to lose a whole generation of people. And also the people who had been putting it on had been putting it on for a very long time. It was, particularly Lisa Vogel, towards the end, was the one person, it was her festival. And I think she kind of sort of retired, but it was also they lost a lot of people and a lot of sadly, I mean, it’s, it’s really sad. I mean, who knows what would have happened if they had just kind of not had this policy, haha…
Julia Serano
…and just changed like a lot of the rest of the world had, but they didn’t. Anyway, I’m there in 2003. And I go there and I write about this in some of my writings, particularly, there’s a piece, it’s on the internet, it’s called On The Outside Looking In, you can find it at my website. It’s also a chapter of my book Excluded, my second book, where I talk about my experiences there. And it was initially a spoken word piece that I performed the whole thing, but it’s now a chapter in a book. And basically, while I was there, it became really increasingly clear that there, a lot of people from the festival who didn’t want trans women to attend, would come over to Camp Trans to hook up with trans guys. Haha, and people, I would hear stories about kind of what were the women attending the festival, the majority of whom were lesbian identified, and when they would talk about it, they’d be like, “Well,” you know, “and there was this trans woman, oh my god, her nails were painted pink,” and like they would just have this really derogatory attitude about like, feminine gender expression, that, that some trans women exhibit. And it just became like over the course of that week. It just really, really hit me. Oh my god. This is all about misogyny, it’s like…
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Suzie Sherman
Internalized misogyny, um hm.
Julia Serano
Yeah, I mean internalized and externalized…
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
…misogyny. Um, misogyny, one of the things I talk about in Whipping Girl is, there’s a tendency for people to think of misogyny as being anti-woman, and in Whipping Girl, I go out of my way to point out, it’s both being anti-woman and also anti-feminine.
Suzie Sherman
Yes.
Julia Serano
And there are, there’s a whole swath of feminism, where people are, will protest the anti-woman stuff, but laugh along with the anti-feminine stuff.
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
I think there are a lot of…
Suzie Sherman
Uh huh.
Julia Serano
…people who, you know, may resent the sexism they face for being a woman, but who feel that they are superior to other women, who in their minds have, scare quotes again, “bought into femininity,” right? And I just, I know too many trans people, trans women, who were, like, really feminine children for reasons that no one can explain, even though they were, like, being socialized male and even though they were harassed and, and, and reprimanded growing up for being feminine, like I don’t think we get to choose whether we’re feminine or masculine, we can make individual life choices but I just think some of us tend to veer in one direction or the other. I mean, we can shift over our lives. I don’t think it’s like necessarily…
Suzie Sherman
Indeed, yeah.
Julia Serano
…yeah, like written in stone. But just sayin,’ ha, that, if you don’t like misogyny, but you make fun of women who are especially feminine, you might want to think about that.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Well, and you know, but yeah, I mean, it was all coming from like an aesthetic and political movement just, you know, the generation before that was that really emphasized androgyny, right?
Suzie Sherman
And, like, and doing away with hyper-feminine presentation because, well, you know, internalized sexism, and also, like, a reaction to the patriarchal imperative that women look a certain way. Right? And so yeah, that led to, you know, just to ki–you know, I guess problematize it a little bit, I see where it was coming from.
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Julia Serano
Oh, totally. And I do, too.
Suzie Sherman
Right. But then, but then to go so far as to fall into that trap to devalue feminine expression and, and not see that you’re falling into that trap. And the other piece also is that of course, anyone who is a sexual or gender minority, or any or any kind of minority that experiences oppression, and insists that everyone in your community needs to express themselves in the exact same way…
Julia Serano
Haha, not gonna work!
Suzie Sherman
Yeah! You, you become you, You become, you become antithetical to your cause. For, you know, for me this…
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
…this, this comes up a lot in queer community around people who are bi, right?
Julia Serano
Yeah.
Suzie Sherman
Where there’s that, there’s that erasure of people’s experience who are bisexual, not just from the heterosexual side of the spectrum, but also from the Gay with a capital G side, haha…
Julia Serano
Uh huh.
Suzie Sherman
…of the spectrum where, where it’s like, I kind of thought if we were in a struggle for sexual liberation, that everyone gets to be liberated, and that means everyone gets to live their lives in a self determined way, the way they want to, and everyone gets to express their sexuality in a way that they want to, and express their gender in the way they want to. Right? So…
Julia Serano
Yeah…
Suzie Sherman
…it’s, um, it’s incredibly complex. And also like, when you’re able to really observe it, to me, it just, it becomes really obvious that we’ve become our own enemy when we’re demanding that people express themselves in the way that we think is the correct way.
Julia Serano
Yeah, no, definitely. And, and we use different language to police, even if we’re doing the exact same thing, which is policing. Like one of the things, especially in queer and feminist communities, there’s the idea of like, well, this is kind of the straight, patriarchal, you know, mainstream way of doing gender and sexuality. And so we, by necessity, need to do the exact opposite…
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
…and all of us need to be, haha, on the same page.
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
And that way we will undermine and overthrow and shatter the gender binary patriarchy, you know, heteronormative landscape, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, yeah, okay, you just espoused an ideology that is the exact same thing but in reverse, haha!
Suzie Sherman
Bizarro World, haha.
Julia Serano
Yeah, haha. And it really is. And people are like, Yeah, but by doing this we’ll shatter or undermine the patriarchy. And it’s like, yeah, but like, I mean, yeah, it just seems weird to me that people think that like, by sleeping with particular people, or doing their gender particular way, they’re gonna, like singlehandedly bring down the gender system. It’s like, haha! It, I mean, it’s really, haha, really narcissistic…
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
If you think about it, like, by me being fabulously queer, and all of us on the same page, being fabulously queer, we will overthrow everything. And here we are in 2019, where, like, a lot of the straight world, as they’ve become more accepting, or tolerant to certain degrees of queer culture, have started adopting a lot of, and appropriating a lot of queer culture. It’s like, yeah, you know, like, just because you’re doing something different doesn’t mean that it overthrows something, but it does mean that they might start appropriating it, haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha.
Julia Serano
You know, so yeah, it’s a hard thing because we all want to like, not we all, but We, We All, you and me, Suzie, we all, and and you listeners out there probably too. We want to bring down these like oppressive structures.
Suzie Sherman
Wait a minute, I’m confused. I thought we, You and I, were The Cancer.
Both
Haha.
Julia Serano
You and I are cancer, in that we’re destroying the environment. But we also want to shatter patriarchy, don’t we? Haha.
Suzie Sherman
Sure!
Julia Serano
Yeah so anywho, uh. I definitely think that it’s understandable where this comes from. And some but sometimes some of the actions that activists propose are just different variations of hierarchies. Either they’re like the flip flop of hierarchies that already exist, or they reinforce hierarchies that already exist, like the anti-feminine sentiment that, uh, is, has, existed within certain strands of feminism. And I had a thing a line, I wrote this in the Aughts, it may be less true today, hopefully it’s less true. But I remember writing that, you know, in gay male communities, masculinity is praised while femininity remains suspect. And within queer wom–queer women’s communities, masculinity is praised while femininity remains suspect.
Suzie Sherman
Um hm.
Julia Serano
And I think there’s definitely more femme acceptance these days than there was back then. But I think that it is useful for us to recognize that sometimes in marginalized communities, we perpetuate hierarchies that either resemble, or are attempts to reverse hierarchies that exists in the mainstream. So…
Suzie Sherman
Right.
Julia Serano
We all need to do some self work. That’s what we’re saying here, haha.
Suzie Sherman
Haha, that’s exactly right.
Suzie Sherman
Thanks for hanging out with Julia and I. She’s such a delightful polymath and her work and her energy is so vital. Be sure to buy a copy of her brand new fiction book 99 Erics: a Kat Cataclysm faux novel. It’s about Kat Cataclysm, an absurdist short fiction writer who dates 99 people named Eric in order to write a book about dating 99 people named Eric. Find all the ways it’s available at Julia’s website Julia Serano dot com. You can also hear Julia’s musical stylings as *soft vowel sounds* gigging around the Bay Area and at the band’s website, soft vowel sounds dot com.
Suzie Sherman
We are And The Next Thing You Know. Subscribe in your podcast app of choice. Share on social media with the hashtag #nextthingpod. You can also rate or review us at iTunes, or throw us a few bucks at patreon dot com slash next thing pod. Join the conversation at nextthingpod on Facebook, and find me at soozenextthing on Twitter. I’m still utterly inept at Instagram, so probably don’t bother finding me there. If you have an And The Next Thing You Know story, send it to us. Maybe it was a subtle thing that happened in your life that pointed you in a new direction. Or maybe it was a smack in the gut change that you didn’t see coming. If you’d like to share your story, email us or record a voice memo on your phone and send it to next thing pod at gmail dot com. We might feature it on a future episode. I want to give special thanks to my Serendipity level Patrons, that’s folks giving me $25 a month or more to support the show. It’s an incredible gift. And one of the perks of being a Serendipity level Patron is that I read your name on the show, so thank you so much to Brittany, Emily, and Dorian, for being such mensches, and thanks to all my Patrons for kicking in your hard earned cash to support the show and make it better. Thanks so much. The banana peel is by Max Ronnersjö. Music is by Jon Schwartz. Thanks, everybody. We’ll talk soon. Unless I fall into a fugue of prog rock and I can’t get up.
Transcribed by otter dot ai, and edited by me.
